Speaker 1: 0:00

All right, dale, I want to go back to your career here. So you're working at the factory, you're driving a forklift. How do you make that jump into an IT role, and is this at the same place that you're working today?

Speaker 2: 0:13

Yeah, so I'm trying to think. I think it was after I graduated and I was still applying to other jobs. I actually asked the IT department there if I could shadow them, just so I can see what actually goes on in the job, and then I did that for a couple months and then I got a help desk IT support position at another factory and did that for about a year and then the place where I work at now they actually called me back and offered me a position.

Speaker 3: 0:42

That's cool. So it was really the curiosity that got you somewhere and you showed people you were curious.

Speaker 2: 0:49

Yep, yeah, they needed a position and remember they shadowed and they're like, yeah, we know a guy. That's so cool.

Speaker 1: 0:55

This is the Art of Network Engineering podcast. In this podcast, we explore tools, technologies and talented people. We aim to bring you information that will expand your skill sets and toolbox and share the stories of fellow network engineers. Welcome to the Art of Network Engineering. I am AJ Murray at NoBlinkyBlinky and I am joined this evening by Dan Richards at Howdy Packet. It has been a very long time since I have uttered those words, dan. How the hell are you doing, my friend?

Speaker 4: 1:36

I am doing great, aj, thank you.

Speaker 1: 1:40

What's new with Dan?

Speaker 4: 1:42

A lot of rework, honestly Lost a lot of weight, mentally getting healthier, but still under construction a little bit.

Speaker 1: 1:54

We all are Dan.

Speaker 4: 1:54

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:55

We all are. It's always a work in progress, that's good to hear, buddy. It looks like you shaved your beard. Is that where all the weight came from?

Speaker 4: 2:01

Yeah, that was about half the weight right there, yeah.

Speaker 1: 2:07

Awesome. Well, I'm glad you are back in the hot seat and behind a microphone.

Speaker 4: 2:11

I'm glad to be back.

Speaker 1: 2:13

Tim Bertino. He is at Tim Bertino. How are you doing, Tim?

Speaker 3: 2:17

Fellas, it's good to have. We got a crowded room tonight. I'm digging it, I know.

Speaker 1: 2:21

It's like so cozy in here.

Speaker 3: 2:23

Personally, I'm digging it. I know it's like so cozy in here. Personally, I'm working on. I finally broke down and started doing the TikTok thing I saw that's good. Kevin's been answering all my bullshit questions with you know he's a kind soul. But yeah, having fun man, it's great to be here and, like I said, full room, this will be fun.

Speaker 1: 2:41

Absolutely Speaking of Kevin. He is the adjacent node. Kevin, how you doing? Hey, how's it going?

Speaker 5: 2:48

hold on, hold on. I don't know why I tried to do like a tom selleck. I don't know were you always? Did you always have the v? No, so it cut off. But it's kevin, the adjacent node nans but was it?

Speaker 3: 3:00

was it always? That that's what I'm asking. No, it's just for tonight. You added a the that's impressive.

Speaker 5: 3:06

Well, I'm up to like 40,000 followers. Now. I'm the adjacent node now.

Speaker 1: 3:11

Except no substitutes, that's right, that's right. Don't be confused by those other adjacent nodes. Exactly.

Speaker 4: 3:18

It's not a real thing. They're all fake accounts.

Speaker 3: 3:21

Yep.

Speaker 1: 3:27

We've got to start a not-adjacent node now. Kevin, I saw you recently celebrated your one-year anniversary on TikTok.

Speaker 2: 3:31

That's pretty cool, you reposted your original video.

Speaker 1: 3:36

Quite a difference compared to some of your videos today.

Speaker 5: 3:40

Yeah, that's been. The biggest shock is how far I've come in this journey of talking in front of the camera and my presence and being comfortable and stuff. It's the biggest. I think the biggest benefit of doing this whole thing is that I'm more comfortable speaking, I'm more comfortable being in front of a camera and the whole public speaking stuff. So definitely a benefit.

Speaker 1: 4:01

It's so huge. That is great. Yeah, we go back and listen to some of our first episodes and it's cringy as all hell man. It's fun to see that progress though right.

Speaker 5: 4:13

Yeah, the growth is cool Awesome.

Speaker 1: 4:15

I'm really excited because I'm fanboying out right now. I've been following Dale for a few years. I'm very excited to get a chance to talk to and interview Dale Wheeler. He does some posting on TikTok. He's been posting about his journey for the last I don't know what couple of years now.

Speaker 3: 4:32

Dale welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. We got to start with his name because oftentimes we get guests in here that just have really cool names and I always try to guess what they would be if they didn't do what they're doing now. So I'm going to start and if anybody else wants to jump in, go for it. Dale Wheeler, if I had to guess, would be on the World Poker Tour, free dealing Wheeler.

Speaker 4: 4:59

I like that.

Speaker 5: 5:00

Trademark that right now.

Speaker 3: 5:03

So I got to ask you, dale dale, before we get into the tech journey if you weren't doing what you were doing today and you could do it all again what would it be?

Speaker 2: 5:11

oh, man, I don't know. Um, I mean, what I was doing was just driving a forklift in a factory, but man, I really don't know.

Speaker 3: 5:19

Come on dale, we're talking hopes and dreams here.

Speaker 2: 5:21

Man, come on, I've always been interested in airplanes, so maybe sometime in the future.

Speaker 3: 5:27

There we go.

Speaker 2: 5:29

Even though I've only ever flown once, but I always like watching people. I think a pilot would be pretty cool.

Speaker 1: 5:34

Yeah.

Speaker 5: 5:35

Heck yeah.

Speaker 1: 5:36

Nice man, Likes to get high my kind of man. Oh my gosh, there goes your sponsors right there.

Speaker 3: 5:46

We'll cut that part out. This is why we don't drink on the air Might get a different kind of sponsor.

Speaker 2: 5:51

now, there you go. What's that? Snoop Dogg's?

Speaker 1: 5:54

calling yeah, dale, what do you do currently? And you mentioned you did the forklift driving thing. So I guess I should preface this by Dale's early in career, and I love that we do this on the Art of Network Engineering. We don't just email the people that have made it, not just the CCIEs and whatnot. I love getting people that are trying to break in or have just recently broken in and get different perspectives on what that journey is like, because it's probably a lot different today than it was when we were starting out, right fellas.

Speaker 3: 6:31

So, Dale, what do you do Back in my day?

Speaker 1: 6:35

Dale, what do you do? And let's talk about where you're trying to get to.

Speaker 2: 6:40

Well, currently I'm a network technician, but we're just a three-man team, so we kind of wear all hats. So we work on firewalls, switches, routers and then the occasional printer computer. So a little bit of everything, unfortunately.

Speaker 4: 6:57

You said the dirty word.

Speaker 5: 6:59

No printers, no, what's that P word? Ptsd right there.

Speaker 1: 7:04

So how did you find networking as something that you wanted to pursue?

Speaker 2: 7:10

Actually finding your guys' podcast.

Speaker 1: 7:13

Really yeah. I think that's the first time anyone's answered that yeah.

Speaker 3: 7:19

Get that guy something.

Speaker 2: 7:21

I was finishing up college and I wasn't quite sure where I wanted to go with it. I knew I was going to have to do help desk or something. I was looking at cybersecurity for a little bit, but that's really hard to get into, especially in my area.

Speaker 1: 7:34

I hear there's boot camps for that, yeah.

Speaker 2: 7:39

Got to make college loans to pay for any of that. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 7:43

All right, so you went to college. Let's start there. What did you go to pay for any of that? Yeah, all right, so you went to college. Let's start there. What did you go to school for? Was it like a general degree in IT? What did you study in college?

Speaker 2: 7:52

Yeah, it was just a general information technology degree.

Speaker 1: 7:55

Okay, all right. And then so you're out of college, you're trying to figure out what to do, and you happened upon our podcast.

Speaker 2: 8:03

Yeah, I was really bored at work. I was just searching for tech podcasts. Well, and then here we are. You guys were the first ones that popped up Boring tech podcast.

Speaker 5: 8:16

Was that the search? Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 8:22

So at what point in our journey did you land on us?

Speaker 2: 8:26

uh, in my journey you're talking about or no, like, like when you found us, like how long ago was it we've been doing this for about four years now, so um, I think you guys are about a year into it okay, all right, so we didn't sound like total crap. That's good, right well, I did go back through and listen through all of them so so I I guess, what, what about, or what is it that you heard?

Speaker 1: 8:53

that was like, oh, I'll give this network thing a try, uh, I guess nothing really specific.

Speaker 2: 8:58

Uh, just everyone seemed like they enjoyed it, so I started messaging andy asking him some home labbing equipment.

Speaker 1: 9:06

Ah, all right.

Speaker 2: 9:07

And he recommended some stuff.

Speaker 4: 9:08

Physical gear, I assume right. Yeah, yeah, sounds like Andy. Okay, very cool.

Speaker 1: 9:15

And so you were doing I think you mentioned you were doing a forklift operator in a manufacturing area. It was your last job before you broke into tech, so let's talk about that journey. How did you break into tech from your previous job?

Speaker 2: 9:32

Well, when I go back to high school after I graduated that I did start college right after that I did computer science, hated that, my man, my man. No wonder you liked andy so much and then, uh yeah, then I met my girlfriend, moved up here I was originally from downstate and then I worked at the factory for two years driving forklift, realized I did not want to do that the rest of my life so applied for college again and uh worked full-time and went to college ah, I've been there nice, that's tough man yeah, factory hours, so anywhere from uh 40 to 60 hours week wow and then we did it you did it.

Speaker 3: 10:17

That's so span of time wise, how far back was that to here?

Speaker 2: 10:23

Starting college. I started in 2017.

Speaker 3: 10:27

The reason I ask is I see that you're and we can get into it whenever, but I see that you really seem to be that continuous learner. You always seem to have your head in the books, and it's funny because you just did a TikTok recently of having some free time I should study, and then you're passed out snoring with the book on your face. But you seem to be spending a lot of time studying for different things, trying to learn continuously. Why do you think that is? Are you just curious by nature, or you're using that to continue to further your career? What are some of the motivations there?

Speaker 2: 11:02

A little bit of both. Definitely want to move into something more than what I am in right now. And, yeah, just always hearing about the new technologies, wanting to learn it. Especially, everyone always talks about Python, so I've been forcing myself slowly to learn that.

Speaker 3: 11:19

Is Andy on right now?

Speaker 5: 11:21

Yeah, Would you say that you're a tinkerer like you, uh, oh, yeah, yeah, like you get to play with stuff and you like to figure out how things work and um, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, even if that's a big sign even if it's something that we don't use a lot at work, I like to try to find out as much as I can right away, I feel like that question separates people who are into IT and not Just people who like to tinker, like to figure stuff out how it works, are drawn to IT and drawn to our line of work.

Speaker 2: 11:51

That's a good point. I ran Ethernet lines out to my garage so I can have a server rack out there. If that tells you anything.

Speaker 4: 12:00

Keep that noise and heat out there. Oh yeah.

Speaker 2: 12:03

I got a couple 1, so they get screaming during the summertime, nope.

Speaker 3: 12:08

So what's your approach when you come up against something, whether it be certification or just a new technology that you want to learn and get more hands-on with, what's your approach?

Speaker 2: 12:21

I usually go straight to YouTube. Actually, yeah, I find videos way better. Um, every once in a while I'll buy a book, but I usually do not retain the information from a book, so I usually go through a lot of video courses, usually go through a couple of them just to get people's different points of view now with the books, is it more of a um, you don't get the retention, or is it like for me?

Speaker 4: 12:45

when I start reading books, I can get like halfway through a paragraph and I don't even remember what I was just reading, and so videos help me in that sense with like, especially like, like cbt nuggets and and things that uh are uh platforms that break it down into shorter bite size. That kind of helps me more. Is it? Is it that, or or what is it for you, I guess?

Speaker 2: 13:10

Pretty much exactly like that and I don't know the videos just more entertaining and I don't know just hearing someone verbally say say, the stuff is just easier to retain.

Speaker 5: 13:21

I think it's important to, whenever you're studying or doing a kind of certification to diversify your're studying or doing a kind of certification to diversify your information, have a little bit in the book, have a little bit of videos, listen to a podcast about it. Whatever it helps getting it from multiple different ways and helps you retain a little more and keeps you engaged.

Speaker 4: 13:37

Yeah, 100%. That's worked the best for me, honestly, Kevin and those Anki webs.

Speaker 3: 13:50

Where's tim at? I'm telling you, man, there's no way. No way I would have gotten through the ccmp without that, or I'd still be.

Speaker 4: 13:54

I'd still be working on it yeah, did we ever figure out how to pronounce that? Is it anki anki?

Speaker 3: 13:59

I don't think we did I say anki, but anki, okay, I'm always wrong.

Speaker 2: 14:03

I've set that up a couple of times and I've used it for maybe a week and I fall out of it?

Speaker 5: 14:11

What is it For those who don't know, like myself?

Speaker 4: 14:13

Yeah, it's like a flash card, it's an app. You can also get it on like a web, through the web browser, and you can say if you create an account, you can save your cards. So, like, if you want to create them in the web browser because for me it's easier to do it through the web browser, because I can use a keyboard, type it all out, uh, but then if, like I said, if you get that account, you can download the app and, uh, it'll sync your, your decks, as it is what they call them so okay, but it's a.

Speaker 4: 14:42

It's a flash card system and it's it'scard system.

Speaker 3: 14:44

And it's more than to me it's more than just flashcards too. It adopts the and we had an episode about it a long time ago about how you retain things and it takes the space repetition approach. So if you get a card that pops up and there's like what? Three or four options, you can either say, give it to me again in 10 minutes. Or it was difficult, or it was medium difficulty, or it was easy, and depending on what you select, it will push it out. So if you say it was hard this time, it may push it out 10 minutes or a day. Or if you say it's easy, it may push it out two weeks or a month or whatever.

Speaker 3: 15:21

So it's that whole space repetition concept and that's. It's that whole space repetition concept and that's it really helped. But to your point, dale, it was something that when I was studying, I had to make it part of my everyday thing. So if I was going to block two hours to studying, like the first half hour or however long it would take would be to get through the cards for the day, um and but it it works. It worked for me at least.

Speaker 4: 15:43

Yeah, and I think one thing too to add onto that is you have to be honest with yourself, Cause I was not at first and I did the same thing, Dale. I was like I was on it for like about maybe four days or something like that, and I was just like I'm not doing this Cause I'm, I'm over here, like well, I kind of knew the answer, but I got it, I got it, I got it.

Speaker 3: 16:03

Yeah, yeah, depends on how many of these I had when I was studying.

Speaker 4: 16:07

Yeah, yeah, but once I had that talk with myself, it actually was beneficial and funny side note, I'm actually using it for my kid because he's working on sight words now, and so I'm actually using it to do the sight words. Obviously, he doesn't answer if he got it right or wrong or if it was medium or whatever, but I'm sitting there just judging off how quick he says it and it's actually worked for him too, so that's really cool.

Speaker 3: 16:40

If you need to learn some sight words. It's a good tool for that, dan will share his decks with you. We're going to make a network engineering sight words book. Hey, you could do that for acronyms, dan, that's not a bad idea, yeah.

Speaker 4: 16:55

I like that. Actually, We'll go somewhere with that.

Speaker 1: 16:59

Oh my gosh, that's great. All right, Dale, I want to go back to your career here. So you're working at the factory, you're driving a forklift. How do you make that jump into an IT role? And is this at the same place that you're working today?

Speaker 2: 17:15

Yeah, so I'm trying to think. I think it was after I graduated and I was still applying to other jobs. I actually asked the IT department there if I could shadow them, just so I can see what actually goes on in the job. And then I did that for a couple months. And then I got a help desk IT support position at another factory and did that for about a year and then, the place where I work at now, they actually called me back and offered me a position. The place where I work at now, they actually called me back and offered me a position.

Speaker 3: 17:45

That's cool. So it was really the curiosity that got you somewhere and you showed people you were curious.

Speaker 2: 17:51

Yep, yeah, they needed a position and remember they shadowed and they're like, yeah, we know a guy.

Speaker 1: 17:56

That's so cool, that's great Dale. So I want to kind of explore how did that conversation go? Did you already have a relationship with somebody in the IT department there? Were you friends with somebody in the IT department? Or did you just walk in there one day and be like, hey, fellas, I'm really interested in doing IT. Is there room for me to maybe shadow what you guys do? How did that go?

Speaker 2: 18:19

I actually got a hold of HR and they kind of set up a meeting with me and the IT manager and we talked about it so I would go in after my shift and not get paid for it, just shadow him for about three, four hours.

Speaker 1: 18:32

So, wow, was this a program that the employer made available? Because I have ever heard of that at some employers, right, like, if you're interested in doing another role, let us know, like we'll help you know. But or or it was just just like, hey, I, I want to go to HR and ask them, you know, is this a possibility?

Speaker 2: 18:51

Uh, yeah, it was just. Uh wasn't something they offered everyone, it was just I went up there and asked them and since I had a pretty good reputation there, they allowed it.

Speaker 1: 18:59

That's, that's fantastic. So you had the conversation with HR. They connected you with the IT manager and then you started to shadow the team. Were you just doing some help desk stuff? Did you get to do some system administration or network engineering? What was the shadowing like when you did that?

Speaker 2: 19:17

The shadowing. I didn't do really anything on the computer. They did show me how to make patch cables. I pretty much just shoulder surfed the, the main sysadmin there just watching what he was doing throughout the day, which was a a lot of sequel stuff did you feel like it was?

Speaker 3: 19:36

it was received well by the it team. Did you form some good bonds there and and uh, really learn a? Or did you feel like you were really just kind of watching and seeing what you picked up?

Speaker 2: 19:48

No, I think I uh made a pretty good relationship with them. Um, we exchanged numbers and I would ask him questions when I went to uh, my new employer, something I didn't know. That's cool.

Speaker 1: 19:58

Nice, nice. And then, when they had a position open up, they called you back and said come on back, man. Yeah, that's awesome. I mean, that's how you know you're doing something right, like when somebody calls you up and says, hey, we like you Get back over here.

Speaker 4: 20:11

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 20:11

Yeah, for sure. So let's talk about what's the day job like as a network tech, where you are.

Speaker 2: 20:19

Kind of varies every day. I'm not always doing networking stuff, kind of just when I first get there check the help desk, and right now some of the projects we have are installing some new firewalls, so that's a big one right now. What brand Fortinet.

Speaker 5: 20:33

Okay, I just saw you got your certification for it right.

Speaker 2: 20:37

Yep, yeah.

Speaker 5: 20:39

Congrats, man.

Speaker 2: 20:39

That's the top free one you can do, yeah.

Speaker 4: 20:42

That's awesome.

Speaker 2: 20:46

Congrats free one you can do. Yeah, that's awesome. Congrats.

Speaker 3: 20:47

Yeah, it was nice I was able to take one of the old ones we had home, so I can mess with that. Oh, nice, nice. Do you find that you're drawn to manufacturing as an industry, or is that what's big in demand in your area? What's what's the story there?

Speaker 2: 21:00

yeah, it's pretty much. Uh, where I'm at, that's pretty much. All there is is just a lot of manufacturing. Unless I decide to move to Traverse City. They have more stuff there, but where I'm at now that'd be about an hour drive one way.

Speaker 3: 21:13

Okay, yeah, those got to be some pretty unique environments, I think. Do you get to interface? Are you really on the mainly the IT side in networking, or do you have to cross over into the OT side as well?

Speaker 2: 21:26

Yeah, so actually the firewalls we're installing right now is for the OT to separate. Okay.

Speaker 4: 21:33

So one thing I want to point out, to kind of back to AJ's question, is the um with what you know. Aj asked you know what's your day-to-day look like? And one thing I kind of want to point out is, if you work in an environment where you have to wear a lot of different hats kind of like what you were mentioning before a day-to-day is kind of hard to describe, because you really never know what your day-to-day is going to look like, because it could be a lot of load balancers one day, it could be a lot of firewalls, another day it could be routing and switching, you know whatever, it could be cloud, you know, you don't know, uh. So I think that's a good point to uh, you know sorry, I think that's a good point to make, though that when you are in a role of many hats, that your day-to-day could be very different, and that might be something could be very different, and that might be something that people don't like, and that might be something that people do like Me personally, I do like that.

Speaker 4: 22:32

What about you, dale?

Speaker 2: 22:33

Yeah, I like it. So where I'm at now, we mess with networking equipment. A lot of it. A lot of what we do, too, is mess with SQL databases and try to make automation for that stuff too, where the Python comes in.

Speaker 4: 22:47

I was about to ask is that where Python is?

Speaker 2: 22:49

Yeah, there's a lot of SQL statements that I'm trying to automate, so make it a little faster.

Speaker 1: 22:55

So what are you doing with the SQL? Is that connected to the networking, or are you just responsible for a database that's outside the network per se?

Speaker 2: 23:03

Yeah, the database is pretty much what holds everything together for the inventory system, shipping, trucks, finance, accounting, everything.

Speaker 1: 23:14

Oh, so you're a network tech, but you cover a lot more than just the network.

Speaker 2: 23:17

Oh yeah.

Speaker 5: 23:20

You're also a DBA apparently.

Speaker 3: 23:23

Be careful how many people you say that to, just yeah, yeah, I'm still pretty new into it, but yeah, yeah, we gotta so out of out of all the, out of all those hats so far, which one are you drawn to the most?

Speaker 2: 23:38

uh, definitely networking um whenever there's.

Speaker 3: 23:41

That's the correct answer.

Speaker 4: 23:42

You passed the test. You're A1 certified now Nice.

Speaker 2: 23:51

Yeah, since I've been there, we've had a couple networking-specific projects and I volunteer for those right away. How big of a team. There's three of us on site and then we have two programmers that work from home.

Speaker 1: 24:03

Wow, how about overall company size? Like just just to give like a ballpark?

Speaker 2: 24:08

how many people do you support? I think there's roughly 500 people, wow oh wow, geez, that's a good size yeah, five to five hundred, that's that's crazy dale.

Speaker 5: 24:22

I've never supported a like warehouse factory-esque type building or network. What would you say are some of the biggest challenges having to support a factory like that?

Speaker 2: 24:32

a lot of it is, I would say, trying to trace cables, because some of the stuff that's been there forever is uh well, being in a factory like that. It's either covered in oil dust, some of it you can't even find.

Speaker 4: 24:46

Oh my gosh, yeah, so just the harshness of the environment, kind of thing.

Speaker 2: 24:52

Yeah, being in manufacturing, everything's always moving so there's always new cable runs to what we call cells, so the new cell stations for new parts that come in. So I mean, I've only been there for seven months and I think I've had to set up I don't know five or six new cells running cable and setting up new switches and stuff there.

Speaker 1: 25:13

Wow. So it's a very dynamic environment, it's not?

Speaker 2: 25:17

Oh yeah, it's always changing.

Speaker 3: 25:19

Wow, that's what I was going to ask from a, from a network perspective what does a? What constitutes a cell?

Speaker 2: 25:25

A cell, so we have PLC that runs there, which would be like your OT stuff, Got it okay. And then networking for printers. Usually there's either one or two computers over there that runs a part verifier that verifies the parts to make sure they're good before they move on to the next process.

Speaker 3: 25:44

So I'm guessing, being out in that environment, do you got to be all hard-headed up and everything to do that?

Speaker 2: 25:50

Surprisingly not. We do have to wear steel-toed shoes, though.

Speaker 3: 25:53

Steel-toed shoes. Yeah, it's just. I like to think about some of that stuff. When you're talking to people that say, oh, I'm going to get in IT and I'm going to have the at-home or the office job, the desk job, that kind of thing, I mean you can absolutely in IT, in networking, and be in some of these environments that are really cool to see firsthand and be a part of.

Speaker 2: 26:15

Yeah, what I do like about this place. Compared to the other places, I can kind of wear what I want. Last place I had to wear khakis and nice t-shirt.

Speaker 5: 26:23

The IT uniform.

Speaker 4: 26:25

Every day is jean day, so you run in like fiber. Or is that all copper over there?

Speaker 2: 26:33

No, it's mainly copper. Okay, we do have fiber that runs just from the core switch to the IDFs to the other switches.

Speaker 3: 26:42

And you are responsible for the cable installation as well.

Speaker 2: 26:46

If it's a short run, yes. If it's a longer run, we usually have our maintenance team do that, okay.

Speaker 3: 26:52

It's a good skill set to have you mentioned learning. One of the first things you learned was when you were shadowing was, you know, making cables and doing that, and there's, I mean, there's something to be said. I really wish Andy was here in doing that. And there's, I mean, there's something to be said. I really wish Andy was here. There's something to be said for the physical layer.

Speaker 2: 27:05

Yeah, it's actually getting your hands on that stuff. It's actually how I landed my first job. There's a couple of people that interviewed that were more experienced than me, but I was the only one that could answer the correct layout for type B.

Speaker 1: 27:18

Nice, nice. I think that's a rite of passage, like if you're going to get into anything like computers, especially networking. Like you got to know how to do it but no one ever does it anymore.

Speaker 5: 27:28

It's so much cheaper just to buy a whole box of cables that are pre-made.

Speaker 3: 27:31

We're not supposed to tell people that, kevin, they're molded everything you can't beat that they do it so much better.

Speaker 1: 27:38

It's not it's so much cheaper now that you know where to buy them uh when radio shack and and Best Buy were the only places you could get them and they charged you $20 for 10 feet.

Speaker 4: 27:47

Now you can go to Monoprice and it's like $2 for a cable.

Speaker 2: 27:51

Yeah, we actually have to make a lot of ends where we're at now because people are always ripping them out, golly.

Speaker 5: 27:59

That is definitely a benefit of repairing cables and being able to crimp it really quickly and just get it back instead of having to rerun a new cable or something like that that's when it comes in handy.

Speaker 3: 28:07

Yeah, but you can always just order 20 more cables so anytime I hear someone talk about being in it, being a part of a small team, I one of the first things I think about is and ask is what's that work-life balance like? Are you having to do a lot of after-hour stuff? Do you carry the on-call quote beeper? I know we don't call it that anymore, but it's still a term that's out there. What's that been like?

Speaker 2: 28:38

Well, I do have a separate work phone for that, but yeah, we're supposed to have a third shift guy, but it actually hasn't been too bad. Usually when it is something in the middle of the night it's, most of the time something pretty simple. Usually operator error Some breaks printer. They need to know where to grab a new one Every once in a while. We have to reset something in the database, which I usually can do from my phone, which is nice I can just land and quickly do it that's always my first question.

Speaker 5: 29:08

Man who needs to print at 2 am come on do you have any uh, critical services that like, if this goes down in the network, then like you must respond right away.

Speaker 2: 29:19

Business is losing money, that kind of thing um, if it's anything, I think the biggest one is if a truck needs to go out and there's something holding it from going out. Um, like, actually today there was something that was holding up a truck from processing, so they could stage it to get it out and they can't just put it on the truck and send it out, or else, uh, they can get in trouble from the customer yeah, it's so weird.

Speaker 5: 29:43

It's just a completely different world than what I'm used to, so it's fascinating to me. Yeah, and if?

Speaker 2: 29:48

the. If the truck drivers get held over, we get charged for that oh interesting, yeah, yeah, what kind of uh, what kind of communication mechanisms are used out on the manufacturing floors?

Speaker 3: 30:01

is it some sort of radio system, or or is it even that advanced? What does that look like?

Speaker 2: 30:07

Yeah, so the operators and supervisors on the floor. They just use two-way radios. Okay.

Speaker 1: 30:13

Do you have any radio over IP stuff?

Speaker 2: 30:16

No, I don't think so no.

Speaker 1: 30:19

I did consulting for a little bit with somebody that did a whole bunch of networking and voice over IP and for one of our customers, which was a waste management company, they had a radio over IP system that you could pick up a VoIP phone, dial, a number, and it would put you through to a radio and then you could call out. You could talk to the guys driving around in the trucks.

Speaker 5: 30:45

That's really cool that was a thing, yeah.

Speaker 2: 30:48

I thought you were joking about radio over.

Speaker 4: 30:50

IP.

Speaker 3: 30:52

Remember when we were talking about at the beginning of this where we may or may not have to fact check stuff.

Speaker 1: 30:58

No, radio over IP has been a thing for, like 911, dispatch has consoles all over the place.

Speaker 3: 31:03

It's all IP connected now, yeah, that makes a ton of sense.

Speaker 4: 31:06

Well, all I know is Dale mentioned two-way radio and AJ woke up all of a sudden.

Speaker 1: 31:11

Yeah, I'm a radio nerd, that's true. Guilty as charged.

Speaker 2: 31:15

I think you'd get along with my dad then. He's got a bunch of them at his house.

Speaker 1: 31:18

Nice, they probably know each other.

Speaker 2: 31:22

I was going to say AJ hammer. They probably know each other. Call the handles.

Speaker 3: 31:23

I was gonna say aj, you've got, you hold the certification and everything, right yeah yeah, yeah, that'd be funny if I talked to your dad at some point.

Speaker 2: 31:29

Yeah, he's got uh, he's got one of those huge antennas in his yard yeah I forget for which radio it is. Uh, he's got a few of them for different bands probably the the hf bands yep, yeah, there's one. Uh, I know if the space station flies over, he can actually reach in here. Hear from it.

Speaker 1: 31:46

I've done that too.

Speaker 4: 31:47

Yeah, I was about to say I think AJ's talked about that before.

Speaker 1: 31:50

Yeah, we're going to take this way off track man, didn't you talk to space one time? I did. I've actually done it twice. I've talked to astronauts in the space station twice.

Speaker 4: 31:57

And they talked back.

Speaker 1: 31:58

They did, they did. Yeah, I think I have it recorded too. I can dig that up. I'll show you guys. Yeah, I'm a big, big ass nerd, all right. So what's? I've worked in manufacturing. Do you guys have barcode printers? Is that like the bane of your existence?

Speaker 2: 32:19

Because that was the bane of my existence when I did yeah, 90% of them are barcode printers.

Speaker 1: 32:22

Yeah, yeah, pain in the ass, man. Wireless was also a big challenge out on the warehouse floor because of all the metal. I didn't work in a large. We didn't make big things, we made mowers.

Speaker 2: 32:38

Okay.

Speaker 1: 32:38

And so we still had a lot of steel structures that held all of the different materials for manufacturing and stuff like that. So it was always a challenge to set up wireless and, like you, they were always moving stuff around. When we had a new product, they had to build new cells and sometimes they did away with old products, or if a product got a major upgrade, they had to redo the whole thing. So lots of running cables and setting stuff up.

Speaker 4: 33:03

It was always super dirty so let me ask this uh, so I'm assuming there's a lot of like heavy machinery in the, in the warehouse, uh, or in the factory there. Does that interfere with wi-fi at all? Because I feel like it kind of would big electric motors and stuff like that. Is that something that you have to deal with?

Speaker 2: 33:25

um, I mean probably, but we try to run cable for everything okay, I got so we haven't. I haven't really experienced anything with it, but I would assume so, because a lot of those presses, I think it's like, uh, I don't know 440 volts or something like that yeah, it's random, insane yeah, so a lot of power.

Speaker 4: 33:42

I think a microwave is bad.

Speaker 2: 33:45

Yeah, we've had one of those arcs before when someone was working on them and it's like a lightning strike.

Speaker 1: 33:52

Holy cow. Yeah, yeah, I'm surprised.

Speaker 2: 33:55

They walked away from it too, which is crazy.

Speaker 1: 33:58

So you went to college, you got the degree. How about certifications? You said you got the Fortinet certifications. Did you go out and pursue, or are you currently pursuing, any additional certifications?

Speaker 2: 34:11

Well, I posted a couple of times about the CCNA. No one's been on the burner for a couple of years now. Eventually I would like to get that. I think my employer will pay for that one, so try to push for that. One more and are you a cisco shop kind of? They're hp aruba, so it's very similar to cisco, uh, but we do have maraki there too.

Speaker 1: 34:34

Okay, okay, um, but our corporate office does want us to move to all cisco, so that will be down the road nice mean at least to have a consistent vendor, because I mean you've already mentioned Fortinet, you had HP, aruba and Meraki Yep. Like does that get confusing? Is that a pain or is it kind of easy to float around between the mix?

Speaker 2: 34:56

Since I've mainly been studying Cisco. A lot of the HP commands are very similar. Some of them actually seem to make a little more sense, Like when you're tagging and untagging a port. You actually type tag and untag. Yeah, but no, it's not too confusing. Meraki, stuff seems pretty straightforward.

Speaker 1: 35:17

Yeah, what part of the Meraki stack are you using?

Speaker 2: 35:20

It's just wireless, just AP, okay, gotcha. So you got Meraki ap's hp switching and fortinet firewall yep, and then, uh, we actually have some older ubiquity bridges that shoot over to another warehouse that we have okay oh, okay all right you've got some experience with that too.

Speaker 3: 35:41

Aj don't you? Yeah, you've worked with some of that stuff yeah, those are nice, I like those yeah, the point-to-point stuff the air fiber they call it, is what I've worked with I think that's what it is.

Speaker 2: 35:50

I can't remember um, I know we had to move one of our warehouses so we had to set that up within, like my first month there that's what I wanted to campus are we talking about?

Speaker 2: 36:00

yeah, that was my question too aj um, so we got our main factory and then, within like like a square mile, there's like three other buildings that are, uh, the ones I would say half the size and the other ones maybe a quarter of the size, but you're looking at maybe 30 people for each of the smaller ones and then everybody else from that 500 and the other one Nice.

Speaker 1: 36:22

All right, did you say any other certifications?

Speaker 2: 36:27

Ones that I currently have. I have the A-plus and the Security Plus.

Speaker 1: 36:31

Okay, how was the Security Plus?

Speaker 2: 36:34

I would say that one was actually easier than the A-plus just because there was a lot less information Really? Yeah, because the A-plus, even though it's basic information, it's just so much and you have to go take two tests for it.

Speaker 3: 36:48

yeah I think that one's, I think that one's changed quite a bit over the. I think when I did it, it was probably like 2010 and, yeah, it was a single test and I think they've definitely made changes to that, because you said it's two, now right, yep yeah, I think it was like a hour and a half for each one.

Speaker 2: 37:04

Yeah, the Security Plus wasn't bad. I was already looking at a lot of security stuff and then my employer paid for like a week course and then I took the test a week after that.

Speaker 4: 37:14

Okay, nice, so like a boot camp and then test right after the boot camp.

Speaker 2: 37:18

Yeah, some government-paid thing that they were offering. Huh, okay. So yeah, jumped on that.

Speaker 6: 37:28

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Speaker 5: 38:37

All right, I'm going to selfishly change the subject real quick. You have a TikTok account.

Speaker 1: 38:42

Yep.

Speaker 4: 38:42

There we go.

Speaker 5: 38:43

And you make content. Can you tell me a little bit why you uh decided to create a tiktok and make networking-esque uh content? Well, when?

Speaker 2: 38:52

I actually first started tiktok. It was back in during the, during covid, and it was just random funny skits and then, uh, eventually I ended up deleting all those and changing it more towards tech and networking. I'd say the biggest reason one. I just like sharing this stuff. It also helps with studying too. If you say it out loud, record it. Listen to yourself about five times.

Speaker 5: 39:17

Hate every second of it deleted, redo it.

Speaker 3: 39:22

I do like the mix of what you have out there right now. You've got some funny stuff that's network related and then you've also got more instructional things. You had one recently about bringing some gear home and getting it hooked up and kind of stepping through that process. I think that's.

Speaker 2: 39:38

I think it's cool to have that balance yeah, I like to do the uh the more in-depth stuff, but obviously those do not get a lot of views when you post those. So, yeah, I like to do the uh the more in-depth stuff, but obviously those do not get a lot of views when you post those. So, yeah, I do like to throw comedy in there too. Usually, uh, the short ones do better see that's.

Speaker 4: 39:53

I'm a little stuck on that because come on yeah, I know, I know I'm a little stuck on that because I've you're not the first person who has said that it's like a piece of me wants to do it to go more technical. But then if the technical stuff doesn't really get the views, what are you on there for? What are your goals there? You already kind of mentioned that a little bit post some funny stuff, but then also to kind of help yourself learn the material, right, uh. But it's like I don't know. It's like what, what's your, what's your goal on tiktok? If, uh, if it's not going to be just posting funny stuff to get the views and whatnot, I think, I think you nailed the concept, dan, of knowing what you're trying to get out of it, and that's why I love that kevin.

Speaker 3: 40:41

Kevin asks that um, often it's you're doing something, something. That's why I love that Kevin asked that often You're doing something, something that's taking time, something that's taking effort. What are you trying to get out of it? And I asked myself that when I first started doing the blog and really for me it was Dale mentioned it is teaching something. Doing something that can help teach others or teach yourself is going to end up making a concept come to to you. And that's why I started blogging was really my reason was I'm trying to learn something. If I can do that by putting it in writing, and if it's going to help me and help others, I'm always looking for that win-win. But, yeah, I think knowing your why is incredibly important.

Speaker 5: 41:23

Yeah if you just chase views, then you're no longer creating content for yourself. You're doing whatever you know. You're letting the public, the masses, decide what you're going to do, and then you'll hate it. You'll hate every second of it because you're not doing what you want to do.

Speaker 2: 41:37

Here's the thing about TikTok too is I find the longer videos to be easier to do, really. Why do you say that longer videos to be easier to do? Really, why do you say that? Trying to? Uh, because they say if you make a 15 second video or less, it becomes more popular. But trying to cram an idea into such a short period of time is really hard, especially if you want it to be technical.

Speaker 5: 41:57

Trying to explain that in such a short span is really difficult yeah, for sure, I find it hard to do it in four minutes, five minutes, let alone the one minute that t, that TikTok kind of wants you to do, or at least one minute. But yeah, that's cool. So I just lost my train of thought.

Speaker 3: 42:14

I think it's interesting that you say that With that short period of time.

Speaker 2: 42:20

I don't know what the limit is right now for TikTok, but like YouTube, youtube shorts at this time if it's over a minute you can't classify it as a as a short yeah, yeah, okay, I think on tiktok, I think you have to get certain amount of foulers to upgrade to the next one, but I think the max is like 10 minutes or something like that 10 minutes on tiktok yep yeah wow they're trying to do more long form.

Speaker 4: 42:43

They're even trying to like push out the um, the horizontal landscape you know, okay, so that people actually switch their phones over and do longer form content like that so that's interesting because I it's like the whole shift was go to vertical and like what you were just saying uh, 15 seconds is what's going to be more popular.

Speaker 5: 43:02

So it's kind of funny that the, the, the platform itself, is trying to switch to longer and horizontal, like that's interesting which makes it better for our, our niche, our, you know, our tech people who are, yeah, want to get in there and do a console and show how things are connected and all this other stuff. But it's just not the views right now. Like, like dale was saying what, the the more technical you get, the more, um, like, the more niche you get, the more there's less people who are searching or wanting that information. So, like, if you're creating, you know, a uh ether channel between two switches, the only people who are going to stop and watch that, watch you configure that, are people who are into that vendor and are in the networking and also want to learn how to do that. And that's like five people.

Speaker 3: 43:48

See it's funny you mentioned that because Kevin's talked about that before. What's really cool about TikTok is the statistics and analytics where you can go see the different stats on everything, and it's like, yeah, I go in. And it's like you gotta, you gotta capture that attention within like the first seven seconds, because the ones that I've done it's like, oh, the average I may have a minute plus video. Oh, the average watch time was nine seconds. I'm like, well, what the hell am I even doing?

Speaker 2: 44:14

yeah, you got seven seconds on me nice, I watch your entire videos, tim.

Speaker 1: 44:24

I mean I I let it play.

Speaker 4: 44:25

I might put it face down oh, yeah, yeah, but he's only got about five seconds in, he's yeah, he goes he's got to go get the coffee

Speaker 1: 44:33

I'll take a bullet for tim. Let it play all right.

Speaker 5: 44:38

So, dale, you said that, um, where you're currently at it's, it's, your jobs are kind of limited what you can do. Where do you see yourself in the future? Where do you want to go in the next?

Speaker 2: 44:47

you know, five, ten years um, a network engineer would be pretty nice. Um, I think in the next couple years probably just look at a network admin, see if there's something around here. Um, I have a feeling that I will have to eventually look for a remote position, though, if I want to move into something like that, but I'm trying to, if I'm working on something with someone, visualize it a little bit better. If I've seen the equipment, are we?

Speaker 3: 45:15

sure Andy's not like proxying in his head.

Speaker 3: 45:19

Because we've talked about this time and time again. I mean, andy had that layer one experience and then he worked in large WAN environments where he had to work with people who were in data centers plugging things in that he had to ship out to them and he said that was such a big help that he was able to he even said to visualize he'd close his eyes and try to pretend that he was there to be able to walk him through it. So I think that's a cool mentality. There's a lot to be said for that.

Speaker 5: 45:48

No, I think it's the right mentality personally, like so many people, are just going for that. I want the remote position, I want to work from home as soon as possible and they skip a lot of the steps. And having some that physical access, knowing what to do and being able to guide someone remotely how to do it because you've done it, is such a big help. It is, it is absolutely.

Speaker 4: 46:06

I also think like even with your, your DBA experience that you're gaining, uh, that that'll help you in the long run as well, because, uh, I think we've mentioned on the in the past on the show um, I think you know, when you have experience with doing the system side, server side, whatever you want to call it, um, and even like programming or anything like that, and then you come into network engineering, I've I feel like you have a, a leg up in a sense, because you kind of understand. You kind of understand that side of it as well, not just the protocols and yada, yada, yada, that kind of thing, um, so I I think I think you're going on the right path there.

Speaker 3: 46:47

yeah, I'm not trying to make any broad generalizations by any means, so don't at me. If you're going to add somebody at Andy, just go get him, he deserves it. But I think you see, and this is one of the beauties of networking is that because we have to maintain and control that infrastructure, you have to know to an extent what's riding on top of it to be able to support it the best. So I think you see a lot of network engineers that tend to look into adjacent technologies, like applications, like virtualization and that kind of thing, versus the alternative of other groups that may not look at networking or need to look at networking because the network engineers are there, if that makes sense. Yeah, definitely to look at networking because the network engineers are there.

Speaker 1: 47:34

if that makes sense, yeah, definitely. Do you think where you're at today has any potential to grow to the point where you could be a network admin? Or you mentioned there's like a corporate office HQ. Are they close enough that you could potentially get a position there, even maybe remote?

Speaker 2: 47:51

I think so. The corporate office is down by Detroitroit, so if I did do something like that it would have to be remote, but I believe they do offer remote positions there for that nice, okay, how, how big is the?

Speaker 1: 48:05

I guess the entire company, like, if you include corporate and all the other locations. Is that, is that the 500, or is it just 500 at your site?

Speaker 2: 48:13

No, they have facilities in China, Mexico, Europe.

Speaker 1: 48:18

Oh, wow.

Speaker 2: 48:19

Yeah, oh wow, manufacturing yeah, it's everywhere. When we get into a corporate Teams meeting, there's hundreds and hundreds of just IT people in there.

Speaker 1: 48:29

Whoa yeah.

Speaker 2: 48:30

That's big.

Speaker 1: 48:32

I've certainly not heard of hundreds and hundreds of people on an IT meeting. My goodness, Sounds terrible.

Speaker 2: 48:42

Somebody had to say it.

Speaker 4: 48:43

How many people forget to mute their mic? Can you hear me? Can you hear me? Yeah, over and over again. Do you see my screen?

Speaker 1: 48:52

Yeah, oh man, that's great. Well, what's what's next? You said you've been working on the ccna for a while. Or do you have a date set for are you? What are you thinking?

Speaker 2: 49:05

um, I think once I actually get the money to pay for it, I'm just gonna buy it, set a date, so really kick myself in gear to go for it yeah, that that's how you got to do it.

Speaker 1: 49:15

I think sometimes if you don't set the date, it's just kind of out there right, I'll get to it eventually, Exactly right you set the date and then the pressure's on. So then you got something you got to work towards. That's a good idea. I just had a question I was going to ask you. I hate it when that happens, but the power of editing. I know. Thank God.

Speaker 3: 49:37

So I got to ask not IT related do you have any cool forklift stories?

Speaker 4: 49:44

Why didn't we start there, my God?

Speaker 1: 49:45

that's a good one, Tim.

Speaker 4: 49:47

Have you ridden a forklift through that?

Speaker 1: 49:48

Well, AJ, are you in one of those videos where the forklift operator just completely knocks all the shit down.

Speaker 3: 49:55

Aj made a comment earlier of how you made the jump from where you were at into IT. And for a second there I thought AJ was about to ask do you ever?

Speaker 1: 50:08

take that thing off. Any sweet jumps.

Speaker 2: 50:18

I mean definitely I've knocked stuff, stuff over, not necessarily inside but we store a lot of our empties outside. So yeah, and we store all my empties, so we do have to go out there in the winter time and uh yeah, those things do not ride very well in the snow oh yeah, those tires are like bald to begin with. Oh yeah you hit the brakes and you just speed up.

Speaker 4: 50:35

There's no stopping I think that comes with, you know, operating a forklift though you're, you're gonna knock crap over. So oh yeah, even if it's just how bad was it? You know, like was it what he was talking about?

Speaker 3: 50:51

like the entire warehouse goes down, or I mean come on, dan, we have insurance for a reason yeah, right, right.

Speaker 1: 50:59

What kind of forklift was it? Was it like a four-wheeled one, or do you have like the three-wheel one where the back wheel turned on you?

Speaker 2: 51:05

you had like the rear wheel steering or the walk behind uh, yeah so the shipping guys, they get the bigger sit down propane ones and all the people that are running the material inside are stand up electric ones yeah, kind of stand up kind of.

Speaker 4: 51:20

They kind of look like the ones you see at like home depot, where you stand inside of it oh, okay, all right, so you're still riding on it, but yeah, you're just standing there versus, yeah, the ones I used to operate where, uh, you walk behind it. You know, you had the little you did this.

Speaker 2: 51:34

You know a little motion. Yeah, it's definitely hard on your knees writing those things, for sure all right.

Speaker 1: 51:40

Um, well, outside of work, where you know we're big fans of mental health here. So what? What do you do outside of work that that helps keep you relaxed, balanced, focused?

Speaker 2: 51:51

um, usually just spend a lot of time with my daughter nice yep all right, good answer, pretty much whatever she wants to do that is also the correct answer.

Speaker 4: 52:01

Yeah, how old is she?

Speaker 2: 52:03

she's five yeah, you know, she was just out there today. Uh, I bought her one of those Chinese gas four wheelers and she loves it.

Speaker 4: 52:13

Oh yeah, there we go, that's great.

Speaker 2: 52:18

She loves ripping on that thing.

Speaker 1: 52:20

That's awesome. Um, is there anything that we we should have asked you that we haven't talked about yet? Anything that you want to talk about before we wrap this thing up?

Speaker 2: 52:31

I don't think so.

Speaker 1: 52:32

Well, dale, it's. It's been a lot of fun chatting with you. Like I said, I've been a big fan of yours for quite a few years, so, um, it's, it's great to get you on here. I love your. Your logo, uh, decrypted dale. Uh, I've got you sent me some stickers at one point and I've got those on a board with all my other community stickers, uh, so I I love your logo and that little name, uh, for yourself. Um, I love what you're doing on social media. Where can people find you?

Speaker 2: 52:57

Mainly on Twitter. It's just Dale. I think it's just Dale W-H-L-R, and then TikTok, of course, same name.

Speaker 1: 53:05

And if the government shuts down? Tiktok on us. Where are you going to go?

Speaker 2: 53:09

Yeah, probably just Twitter. Probably just stay on Twitter. Probably just Twitter, can you?

Speaker 4: 53:14

do shorts on Twitter.

Speaker 2: 53:17

I post videos every once in a while. On there I've been sharing them on Instagram too, just resharing the same ones.

Speaker 1: 53:22

Good deal, Dale. Thank you so much for joining us tonight. This has been a lot of fun. We do appreciate it and we'll see you all next time on another episode of the Art of Network Engineering Podcast. Hey everyone, this is AJ. If you like what you heard today, then make sure you subscribe to our podcast and your favorite podcatcher. Smash that bell icon to get notified of all of our future episodes. Also, follow us on Twitter and Instagram. We are at artofneteng, that's R-O-F-N-E-T-E-N-G. You can also find us on the web at artofnetworkengineeringcom, where we post all of our show notes. You can read blog articles from the co-hosts and guests and also a lot more news and info from the networking world. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time.