Speaker 1: 0:00

This is the art of Network Engineering podcast. In this podcast, we explore tools, technologies and intelligent people. We aim to bring you information that will expand your skill sense and toolbox and share the stories of fellow network engineers.

Speaker 2: 0:23

And now we go backstage with the Net Showman as he prepares for the next colossal matchup between Team IPv4 and Team IPv6. Net Showman, what are your thoughts on this next test for supremacy?

Speaker 3: 0:35

Let me tell you something, here mean Gene Laptev and I'll be honest with you, I'm feeling a little disrespected.

Speaker 3: 0:44

Yeah, you see, everybody here knows that IPv4 and the Net Showman have been the undisputed tag team champions of the TCP IP stack for decades Decades. I said, mean Gene. Oh yeah, now we've had this IPv6 challenger up in our collective faces for a long time, saying that they're the biggest and the baddest. But frankly, I just don't see it. I mean 128 bits. Ain't nobody got time for that? Mean Gene? Yeah, honestly, can IPv6 really reign supreme over IPv4 and the natural man? Don't worry, mean Gene Laptev, that's a rhetorical question, doesn't require an answer. Yeah, what I will say is that the A1 goat will rise to the top. Oh yeah, all I got to say to the wonderful folks at home is to make sure you tune into this one and have your popcorn ready. Oh yeah, all right, mean Gene, I've said my piece, don't need any more talky time.

Speaker 2: 1:52

Oh, yeah, Well, folks, you heard it here first. The battle between IPv4 and IPv6 rages on. Now stay tuned for this episode of the art of network engineering.

Speaker 1: 2:03

Welcome to the art of network engineering. I wish I could be a wrestler too, but I am AJ Murray at no Blinky Blinky, and that was just an amazing, an amazing intro. I cannot wait to edit this and share this with the world. You guys did a great job. I mean, like seriously, that was, that was amazing.

Speaker 2: 2:23

That was all Tim.

Speaker 1: 2:27

He is the Nacho man Tim Bertino at. Tim Bertino Tim, what a bang up job, man. Where, where do you come up with this stuff?

Speaker 5: 2:34

I told you, I drink a lot.

Speaker 1: 2:39

That's one way to get the creative juices flowing how you been.

Speaker 5: 2:42

I do. I do got to say I was by no means, because I know we've talked about this a lot of times on the show and had different people on talking about it. I was by no means trying to start a cultural war. I was just poking fun at all the v4 and v6 stuff we hear all the time.

Speaker 1: 2:58

Why not? Why not? And Andy Laptef, he is mean Gene, andy Laptef. How you doing, andy.

Speaker 2: 3:03

Nat forever man. That's all I got to say I'm a big fan of Nat and, just like automation, I'm not crazy about v6. So, tim, I got your back.

Speaker 5: 3:13

I got to, I got to do a plug, though. There was a recent cables to clouds episode on AI and drumming up cloud configuration, and that was a big theme of that is. That is that Nat is one of the best security tools out there on the planet. So, yeah, nat forever that. Yeah, that was for Chris.

Speaker 2: 3:35

I'll correct myself. I love automation. I dislike coding. So circling back. I'm great, aj. It's great to see everybody. I'm thrilled to have our hosts tonight. It's summertime as we record a lot of pool time with the kids. We're heading down to the beach this weekend. So life is good, work is great. How you doing man? How's AJ?

Speaker 1: 3:56

Doing well, doing well. Things are quite busy here in Vermont. We recently had quite a bit of flooding, a little bit of water. I have not personally suffered any consequences of that, but I've been trying to pitch in and help out where I can. And it's it's crazy man, the power, the power of water. I have not seen anything like it. I don't know if ever, but it's just wild stuff when Mother Nature kicks up.

Speaker 5: 4:20

Those shots you got were amazing man. I was gonna say, and I kind of wanted to ask you about that, because you said you you had gotten involved. How did you get involved? Was there a specific agency? That reached out, or did you just start flying your drone around until somebody said buddy, come here.

Speaker 1: 4:35

Right. So the power of social media man. So the director of geospatial studies at the University of Vermont was posting some shots on Twitter of what was going on, and this was a day after the rain had kind of stopped, but now all the water is making its way into rivers and streams and down towards the lake, and that's when the flooding really started to kick up. And so I reached out to him in a DM via Twitter and I said hey, I have my FA part 107, which is a commercial unmanned aircraft systems license. Right, it's a commercial FA drone license. And I said I have a drone, can I help out? You know he's, he's taking pictures of damage assessment or damaged areas and flooding, and they're passing those images to state and federal agencies so they can do the damage assessment and make decisions about where to send resources. And so he said yeah, I could use your help.

Speaker 1: 5:31

There's a particular river called the Lemoyle River. It flows for quite a quite a ways, and they had zero coverage. They had no idea what was going on on the Lemoyle River. So they asked me to take my drone, drive as far north as I could take pictures of serious flooding, any sort of damage that I could see with the drone and get those pictures back, and it felt really good to help out because the one big piece of feedback I got from him was that I was more helpful to him than six commercial satellite imagery companies that they could not they could not take pictures fast enough, they could not get them to him fast enough.

Speaker 1: 6:09

As I could, right Like I'd put the drone up in the air, I'd take a few pictures, copy them over to my phone, I'd send like really critical ones to him in a DM via Twitter, and then at night I offloaded everything and uploaded them to a link that he gave me and then he was able to download them all and go through everything and he said the stuff was super helpful. The National Weather Service was using them to kind of validate flood prediction data, so it was just really cool. You know like it was really cool to help out in that way. It was not cool to to see everything that I saw. I mean, people's homes were washed away. There was stuff floating in the river that you know does not belong in a river Like it was. It was really tough to like watch, but it was great to be able to help out.

Speaker 2: 6:52

I got a question what's a commercial drone license?

Speaker 1: 6:56

I mean, you know like, if you buy a drone.

Speaker 2: 6:58

Do you have to get that, or is that a special thing you did?

Speaker 1: 7:01

So that there's two, basically two different categories of drone licenses. Right, there's if you, if you fly anything that's ways like 50 pounds or less, you have to either have a hobbyist license or a commercial license. And hobbyist is it is what it is right You're flying for fun. If you're flying for any other reason other than fun and that's not just making money, then you have to get the FA commercial license and to do that you have to you know, understand whether you have to know certain rules of the air. There's restrictions applied to drones, there's all of this stuff. Right, and I'm just an aviation nerd. I had absolutely no reason to go get that other than I wanted to. And hey, let's face it, I like certifications, so it was just like a mini got them all I got it now you, you got every technical, certain networking there is.

Speaker 2: 7:53

So now you went after a different vertical.

Speaker 1: 7:55

Now you're an aviation. That's great man, maybe great great work.

Speaker 2: 8:00

Now I want a drone.

Speaker 1: 8:01

Yeah, they're. They're fun as hell. I recommend it to anybody, but I digress. Thank you for asking. It's been a lot of fun. I am very excited about our guests tonight. I do want to get on with the show because he's doing us a huge solid by staying up very late where he is to hang with us and record this episode. Everybody welcome Ethan Ethan to the episode. Thank you so much, ethan.

Speaker 4: 8:24

Well, thank you, gentlemen, pleasure to be here, nice, to actually speak to in person rather than just all the messages. How are we all?

Speaker 1: 8:33

I'm doing well. I'm very grateful that you're spending the time with us. We're doing a little bit of a throwback. I feel like we haven't done one of these in a long time, like we used to occasionally have people from the community on the show. Ethan, you stand on your own two legs, man, like you do an awful lot. You're a young guy, you put everything out there on social media and you're doing some really cool stuff, so I'm excited to dig in with you. Thanks again for joining us.

Speaker 4: 8:57

Anytime. I couldn't think of anything better to be doing it two o'clock in the morning. I was going to ask you what the local time?

Speaker 2: 9:05

is there Oof Great answer.

Speaker 4: 9:06

Yeah.

Speaker 5: 9:07

Do you have?

Speaker 1: 9:07

work tomorrow I have two.

Speaker 4: 9:09

I booked half a day so I could spend the morning with you folks.

Speaker 1: 9:14

So but yeah no, honestly no.

Speaker 4: 9:17

Thank you for having me.

Speaker 5: 9:18

Another thing I love about Ethan is that we always see him show up in different tweets and LinkedIn posts wearing that amazing A1 poll over.

Speaker 4: 9:28

He's always repping for it 100%. I thought I had to be part of in with the theme. Like you all have your microphones, I thought I've got to do something on that.

Speaker 2: 9:38

You look great, thank you.

Speaker 4: 9:40

Oh, you're making me blush, aren't?

Speaker 2: 9:41

there, I love your accent. I really do.

Speaker 4: 9:46

Oh, see everyone everyone like really mugs me off about it, to be honest, because I'm up in like the north of England, yeah, and it's like where I live is a town called Burnley, but rather than it being like L-E-Y, we pronounce it L-E-H, so it's like Burnley. Everyone mugs me off.

Speaker 2: 10:05

It just dawned on me, do you? Do you watch Ted Lasso?

Speaker 4: 10:09

I do not. I haven't watched it yet.

Speaker 2: 10:10

Okay, so anybody who watches it. There's a soccer star, Jamie. He sounds just like Jamie. He must be from the same area and have the same dialect, because I'm like why is this so familiar?

Speaker 1: 10:21

I know you're talking about it, you're right.

Speaker 2: 10:24

So where do we start, man? Where do we jump in here with Ethan?

Speaker 1: 10:27

I would love to know how Ethan got into network engineering. And then I know that you're very tied into service providers. So as a follow on to that later on I want to dive into that with you. So what got you into network engineering?

Speaker 4: 10:43

I'll be completely honest. A lot of people I just kind of fell into it when I was in school at 16, I'm not too sure what it is in the US, but I came out of school with a single it's called a DCSE, which was in IT. So it's just a case of like showing how to use a computer. And then I went to college straight after that, did my level one cost I didn't have enough creditations to get on any higher levels Did that for a year again. It was just kind of showing how can I use Excel, how can I create leaflets, how can I use a PC. Pretty much Now the reason why I went to college for that is I actually wanted to be a chef when I was leaving school. I just missed this part out, to be honest.

Speaker 2: 11:33

You wanted to be a chef you said yes.

Speaker 4: 11:38

So one of the classes that I took was a hospitality, but the closest college to me was like a two hour bus journey. Being 16, I was not getting up early in the morning. I was like I do not want to travel two hours in the morning and two hours back. So, yeah, rather than actually going into hospitality, I went into IT instead. So I passed my first year and then in the second year you had the option to go into either software or networking. I didn't really know what networking was, to be honest, so I thought I'll try software and luckily they give you like a week or two where you can kind of swap courses. So, on the first sort of project that we gave as our class, it was building an ATM with C++ and I got about three days in and I started pulling my hair up because I could not call to save my life.

Speaker 5: 12:33

I may preach?

Speaker 4: 12:37

So after that I asked if I could switch to networking and I remember exactly to this day, on the first day that I went in, it was literally a case of connecting two P's into a switch, configuring an IP address and pinging across on CMD. And at that point my mind was just absolutely blown. I was like how is this working? What's happening? And then, straight after that, then my colleague. He decided to show me what the internet is and started explaining to me a little bit about BGP and I was like what is going on?

Speaker 4: 13:15

So, yes, so I ended up doing the level two networking course. It was predominantly based just around NetEch, to be honest, and doing like certain modules, just based around networking. And then after that, when you're in college, you can either go on to a level three, which is your final year before you actually go and do a degree, or you can go and do an apprenticeship. So rather than just doing theory, I decided to go on the apprenticeship route. So, actually getting hands on with all the physical equipment, logging into Cisco 887s, clearing the config off them, setting up Voigt phones it was quite a wide variety of jobs that I was doing. So I'd be working with printers, installing cartridges, working with the Voigt phones, configuring Cisco routes to be sent out, doing a lot of cabling, which it was fun at the time, but after you do it for a couple of weeks it's a bit repetitive, to be honest. And yeah, that's sort of like my story internet work, engineering that I kind of just fell into it.

Speaker 5: 14:33

To be completely honest with you, it does seem like that that can be a common theme, because I was the same way and that's what I one of the reasons. I really appreciate how a lot of colleges no matter what you know technology specialization you're getting into. Like you said, you were coding. Andy and I were both computer science majors originally and that's what I got into. So I was getting hit over the head with C++ and calculus and I'm like, oh shit, what am I doing here? And then it just so happened that as part of the curriculum you know, we had to take at least intro to networking classes. So we had Netacad as well at the school I went to and just by chance I sat into that because it was technically still part of my program or one class that I had to take as an elective.

Speaker 5: 15:18

So I decided to go for it and I sat in on that and it was just like you mentioned. It was just that things made sense in a way that they did not behind the keyboard in a C++ course. So I'm glad that we had that opportunity to have that breadth of knowledge. So we're introduced into multiple things so we can find out what best suits us, versus trying to make us, who weren't necessarily coders, mold ourselves into something that we weren't necessarily. So it's cool to. Sometimes, I think you think your story is unique and you're kind of in it alone until you start having these conversations and you're yet another one, ethan of somebody that has a similar story to me. So it's always cool to hear that.

Speaker 1: 15:58

Yeah, I've got a similar kind of story and it looks like Chris BGP-Man in the chat also has a very similar story as well.

Speaker 2: 16:05

so I love it.

Speaker 5: 16:08

We got to quote him. Chris says compside dropouts of the world unite.

Speaker 1: 16:13

Compside dropouts, aka network engineers, exactly.

Speaker 2: 16:19

Chris, when you were, or Ethan, rather when you were talking about when you first saw, like how it was working and looking at the protocols and pinging, and like I started to light up inside because I remember that excitement. You know you fast forward a decade of getting pounded and maintenance windows and it was easy for me to forget that initial excitement. But you know, I was a cable guy for an ISP putting things on a network, but I only knew my little part. And then, as the years went on, I'm like, well, I wanted to know well, how, how is all this stuff working? And then I said, and again, cisco Netacad, similar to you, and I had that same like poof, like, oh my God, you, when you realize all this stuff that's happening below the like surface and to make all this work, it's like, yeah, it really grabs you right. The passion for networking is so easy to catch if you have that experience right.

Speaker 4: 17:06

Yeah, 100%. And I think one of the best things is is when you start like looking under the hood these just so much that you can delve into, okay, so, just from that, okay. So what? What else is there? All these routing protocols, all these other things like layer two. You switch in your VLANs and it's just like for me, it was just like fire ignited. It was like, oh right, okay, so I want to look at this, I want to look at that, I want to look at that. I mean, I'm still at that at the minute. Today I see another certification coming out. Oh, I might go, I might go for that. You know, like a little bit later down the line I've just got like this massive list of certifications that I want to take Speaking of, certifications were certifications part of that early learning journey, like in high school and in university?

Speaker 2: 17:54

Was there any certs? I know you said you didn't. Etiquette Was that. Was that the only cert, like a CCNA level?

Speaker 4: 17:59

Yeah, so what it was is when I start off on my apprenticeship so it was in two years so the first year you'd be doing CCNA, so you wanted to, and then the second year you would then do your three and four. So it basically give you the training for it. But I didn't actually take the exam until quite a few years after. I just never felt ready for it, to be completely honest, and it was kind of just kind of just kept pushing it back and pushing it back and, yeah, I just didn't think I were ready for it at that specific time.

Speaker 2: 18:36

Is anyone ever ready for that exam?

Speaker 4: 18:39

Especially when it's your first one. I mean it's so daunting, like just the amount of stuff that you've got to learn. But I didn't really know about certifications up until after I started my apprenticeship and I was that was a team when I first found out about certifications and I, like that, really started deep diving into the world of network engineering.

Speaker 5: 19:02

I was going to say let's talk about that transition a little bit, because that was something that I found a little bit difficult because I was like you. I got into those Netacad classes. Things really made sense Early on in college. I just kind of made that decision that hey, I want to get into some facet of network administration, network engineering. But then I get out of school and I don't have any marketable skills other than being in those classes around networking. I had been in college working a in user computing, desktop support help desk role so I was able to do that initially right out of school because I just I didn't have the skill sets or the the experience that employers wanted for networking right away. So how did? How did you handle that?

Speaker 4: 19:47

And so, luckily for me, like I said so, I did my level two in college, so that that was just purely theory based and, like I said, that gave you an understanding is to certain components of networking. And then I'll be completely honest with you I think I was quite lucky to be hired in an apprenticeship. Luckily, the company that was actually hiring was hiring a total of four engineers for apprenticeship engineers, that is, so people straight out of college who are wanting to start their career. So, luckily for me, I was actually given a chance to actually develop in the real world rather than just on theory based topics. So, yeah, I mean that that's kind of the transition from theory into into hands on.

Speaker 5: 20:40

So you really got to jump into networking right away out of school, essentially, yeah pretty much Fantastic hands on.

Speaker 4: 20:48

I mean I'm quite lucky now to have found something career wise that I genuinely love it pretty much my first ever proper job as soon as I turned 18. So not a lot of people can say that. And yeah, honestly I love what I do. I don't think I'd ever change my career.

Speaker 2: 21:06

That's fantastic to hear that. That apprenticeship was it paid for? I'm just asking because I just I just did a video of like you know how I broke in and it was really just taking the lowest level technical type job that I could find just to get my foot in the door somewhere. I mean it was even I don't want to say below help desk, but you know it's like running wires at a central office. So it sounds like your apprenticeship was the beginning of kind of how you broke in, getting the experience that Tim just talked about. Was that a paid apprenticeship and did that turn into other things for you? Yeah?

Speaker 4: 21:38

So as the apprenticeship, it was fully paid for for the two years and I actually finished my apprenticeship in about 18 months and so I worked on different departments and obviously had to complete all the net account modules as well as doing certain a couple of theory based but more like working practices and giving examples of like logging into a CMI and things like that. And after the 18 months then I got offered a full time first line position which was working just specifically with with ADSL circuits. So it'd be like running status checks, kbds, checking signal tonnage ratios, things that are sending out new filters, potentially new routers, raising faults with different supplies in the UK. And that was my first full time job with the same company that actually gave me the opportunity for the apprenticeship. And then from there I've moved to a couple of different places. I've had quite a quick rise based on where I am now compared to when I first started.

Speaker 2: 22:49

So the apprenticeship turned into a full time job after the 18 months. Yeah, right, okay, and it wasn't the place you were working on at the apprenticeship. I'm trying to over pivot on this, but I think the most difficult part is breaking in and getting your first shot and you have an incredible story that you found the passion you went through net account. That apprenticeship sounds amazing because you're getting experience or paying you, so that's a huge, that's a huge learning thing. I think that's great to share. I don't even know if they have. I mean, do we have networking apprenticeships in the States, guys?

Speaker 4: 23:19

I mean, is it interns, potentially over in the US? Yeah, don't quote me on that, I'm not 100% sure.

Speaker 2: 23:27

Oh well, yeah, but it sounds like a great program that you were, you were a part of, and then the fact that that so did another company at the end of your apprenticeship reach out and hire you.

Speaker 4: 23:37

No, it was actually the same company that hired me on the on the apprenticeship and then I stayed there for, I think, around eight, eight months after that. But there's only so much that you can learn with DSL and doing the exact same status checks and changing the SNR to increase your speeds. So, yeah, then I ended up moving from my apprenticeship company to a real dedicated first line engineer which was working with like FTTC, fttp, leigh Fines, logging in, doing diagnostics, working with a tier two team and doing PSTN and a little bit of hype and I'd say that job. There is really where things started to really take off for me.

Speaker 2: 24:26

Talking about DSL and P. You know POTS and PTA, like. Is this service provider stuff? Is this like telecommunications? What realm of networking were you in? You're talking about DSL, like over here. It would be like you know, it's like a central office telecom kind of, not necessarily network engineering.

Speaker 4: 24:46

So DSL dynamic subscriber line, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's exactly what it is over here. And then PSTN is just your actual four lines over here in the UK.

Speaker 2: 24:57

So we're looking for the phone company you essentially jumped in the service provider right away. Yeah, right. Like I mean, I know you're a service provider. Now you have been, so did you start a service provider and you've always been a service provider.

Speaker 4: 25:09

No, so I started in an MSP and then I went to an ISP which is Daisy Communications. It's one of the largest ones in the UK. Luckily, I used to do work with those guys. Really yeah yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 25:28

When I used to manage an IT team part of it was in the UK and one of their suppliers that they used to work with Daisy all the time and I would have very regular meetings with our Daisy account reps and talk to them about what we're working on and all that good stuff. That's funny.

Speaker 2: 25:43

For anybody listening doesn't know what an MSP is because I'm one of them I get confused with like MSP and VAR and partner, like there seems to be this whole right.

Speaker 1: 25:52

Yeah, yeah, so what?

Speaker 2: 25:53

MSP is managed service provider, right, right, yes, what is that? Is that a VAR that monitors your network Like what's the?

Speaker 1: 26:00

So it can be not all VARs are MSPs and not all MSPs are VARs right.

Speaker 2: 26:06

Here we go, Tim this again.

Speaker 5: 26:08

It's the jacuzzi thing. Exactly what was that?

Speaker 4: 26:13

Somebody said something blew my mind.

Speaker 5: 26:14

Not all jacuzzi are pools, all jacuzzi are hot tubs, but not all hot tubs are jacuzzi.

Speaker 1: 26:23

It's just like the Xerox and copier thing, right yeah.

Speaker 2: 26:26

So here we go. So they're, similar.

Speaker 1: 26:29

They're similar, but managed service providers will do just that. They will manage services for you, right? Like, maybe it's a small company that doesn't have an IT staff, but they have IT needs, so they will hire a managed service provider to come in and take care of all of your IT stuff for you. I work for a partner, so we also have a managed services group. I work with them. It's a service that we offer, but it's not the only reason why you come into the company that I work for, right? So, yeah, there's a lot of different terms to throw around out there, but that's effectively the managed services. They will sell you equipment and stuff like that, but they typically deploy it for you as a built-in service.

Speaker 2: 27:12

So they'll deploy it and then like, if you have to add a VLAN for something, they'll come out and do that right. Yeah, so they're got it. Okay, you started MSP and how service provider life. I worked at an ISP at the knock and, oh my god, what a fire hose of just technology stacks. It's like how is?

Speaker 4: 27:28

this all working what? Yeah, so I mean to be fair, when I was at DASA it wasn't necessarily core, so that was pretty straightforward. After a few months it was easy enough. I mean, the most difficult diagnostics was really slow speeds on a lease line and it'd just be a case of logging in, just running your generic checks and that'd be that.

Speaker 5: 27:55

So when you say it wasn't necessarily core, does that mean you were more customer facing you were dealing with specifically like customer handoffs and that kind of thing?

Speaker 4: 28:04

Okay, yeah, 100%. It was actually like first line call center, so we just have general customers just calling it because, picking up the phone, running dyags and just trying to resolve the issue. But obviously you had quite a wide variety of different technologies. So you had your normal broadband, different variations of your broadband, your phone lines, your ISDN, your lease lines, predominant lab work with Cisco and we used some wallways. So it wasn't very technical in a sense because a lot of it was already done. It was just a case of pretty much the hardest thing was just running show commands or display commands, essentially on the devices.

Speaker 2: 28:51

Were you talking to customers? Yeah, they call in Okay, so that is another really good skill. I think when you're working directly with customers that are unhappy with their service, right, you can really develop some people skills, communication skills. You feel like that helped being on the phone with customers early on.

Speaker 4: 29:07

Yeah, 100%. It doesn't necessarily matter what scenario I go into now. I'm always comfortable. I've got really good personal skills, being able to actually talk to them, listen to the problems that they've got, being able to understand the issues and then being able to talk them through the steps in order to get to the resolution. That's definitely one skill that has been really helpful throughout. My whole career is just having good personal skills based on all the experience I've got.

Speaker 5: 29:40

Definitely something I wanted to touch on because you said it wasn't necessarily a highly technical job, but that doesn't mean it wasn't difficult because, yeah, dealing with people, especially when they might be upset that their service isn't what they thought or they're having issues with it Do you feel like you had or were pretty comfortable with your customer service skills going into that, or did you feel like you learned a lot from it?

Speaker 4: 30:04

So to start with I was pretty comfortable. It was more so. I was comfortable on the C-aligned stuff because of the previous job that I'd had on the apprenticeship. As time got on and I did get more technical, we did decide to bring certain things in-house. So at this particular job is they put me through my CCNA? So from that we then started making in-house changes on the devices different range of IPs, configuring H-star-P. If there's different solutions, speaking with the core team to get them to make changes I don't know if I've just gone on a little bit of a tangent then.

Speaker 5: 30:50

Well, let's talk about that. You've talked about the core team as well, which I know that you have migrated into over time. What kind of relationship was that between those two teams? Was it kind of an us versus them mentality, or did you work well together?

Speaker 4: 31:09

It was quite difficult, if I'm being completely honest, just because Daisy as a whole was split into sister companies. We were more of the retail side of things, whereas the core team was as part of the corporate side of things. We'd essentially have to raise tickets to a completely different company for them to actually do the work. Some of the engineers who I dealt with on the team weren't great. There would have been quite a few escalations and things like that. It was difficult at the start, but all the time it did get better.

Speaker 5: 31:52

Yeah, I can definitely see where that could be a tough dynamic. If you're essentially same team, it's just another group across the hall, that's one thing. But yeah, when it's split up into essentially a separate company, that can be tough to get some help from different folks.

Speaker 2: 32:11

Sorry, it's my tagline. It used to be at least. You started at the edge right, basically customers going in and then you work to the core. That was a common path at the ISP I worked at as well. I moved on before I went to the core. Was that a hard transition from Edge to core? Because where I worked the core network was intense. I was responsible for the sell sites, so it was fiber handoff to a switch and then there was a central office. We had a big old chassis there so there was two sides to check. But my buddy Mansour, who was on the show he moves on to core man. I'd look over his shoulder and it's just such an intense Technically. Was that a hard transition, going from checking a least line to, oh my god, I'm responsible for the core network of this gigantic you know?

Speaker 4: 33:02

Yeah, well, in between the job and daisy communications I actually moved on to another company. I stayed at that company about 10 months, but that was again. The work was quite repetitive. It was for an IS company and a lot of the time it was just implementing ACLs for customers coming in. So then from that job I'd then moved on to the core, or where I am now. But yeah, 100% going from support to Core network was one hell of a jump that I did not expect.

Speaker 2: 33:41

it was so, so difficult to just start from one customer upset to all the customers upset If you have a problem in the core, like you know, it's like going from like enterprise at data center, like oh, I have one upset customer. Okay, you know, the Northern Seaboard is pissed off at me right now, Sorry, you know, like the blast radius is just huge. I think when you go into the core right.

Speaker 4: 34:05

Yeah, 100%. I mean, I remember my my first week on call at this job and I remember on the Friday afternoon having a look at how many customers that we had and about 200,000 hours thinking network. Please don't die on there.

Speaker 2: 34:24

So I talked to a pilot recently and I'm like, oh wow, that must be amazing having like 300 souls behind you responsible for. He looked at me dead straight. He's like, yeah, we don't really think about that, Andy, we just have a job to do.

Speaker 2: 34:37

When you're working at that place. Take another 300,000 customers. Don't do that man. Just, just, you know, do your job. Take one other thing I wanted to ask before I forget. So, service providers, typically a multi vendor environment, is that? Is that true, right? So, challenges in a multi vendor environment Do you find it and I'll just overshare here that you know, I, I found it difficult to work in. You know two, three, five different vendors, ecosystems, syntax, CLIs, and, and we all, we all had, you know, notes just chock full of syntax of all the different vendor. You know CLI, syntax stuff. So to me that that was the heart, the context, shifting from one to the other all day. I found really difficult. Is that, you know? Is that a hard thing for you? Do you have any tips or tricks for people in multi vendor environments, like, how do you deal with that?

Speaker 4: 35:28

Yes. So I mean I think the transition for me it wasn't necessarily really difficult. I mean I pretty much did Cisco on to our way at the previous job we do have some Cisco's and to our ways here. We've also got Juniper and the Rista. I pretty much find the actual pretty much the syntax between Cisco and Rista is really similar. There's not really much to actually change. The only difference is obviously with Juniper. It's a completely different software. So I mean I work with Juniper pretty much well, it's like every single day. Now I'm a vendor. But I think just spending time on the CLI whether you're going to spend time on on the actual CLI or whether you want to set it up in even G just having the constant, constant flow of CLI running your commands, doing your checks, I think that's the really the only tip that you can have to be comfortable when you are using multiple vendors, and I mean over time it just becomes like second nature. Yeah.

Speaker 5: 36:36

So you mentioned using even G and one thing that I've always been kind of fascinated with service provider is to understand how and when they do things, because you can't, being in a service provider, like you said, having that many customers, you're not just going full send on changes. You know you gotta, you gotta have things scheduled in maintenance windows and typically my experience with service providers it's usually you know midnight to 6am when they're doing things and you know it's heavily redundant and everything. But when you do have to make configuration changes, so are you leveraging things like even G to to lab up topologies and build configurations that you're putting into production to then test them out before you go live with them?

Speaker 4: 37:23

Yeah, so we do have our own, even G server in our lab, based in our headquarters. But we actually have a specific lab room that we try to replicate key areas of the main network so that we can try to actually run it on physical devices rather than Eve. So we've actually got a full rack in our lab that's full of Juniper, arista, cisco, mx 10K, threes, the job lot. So that's where we predominantly do it, but we also do have any server as well. The engineers can go on and just do generic checks, settle labs, just have a little bit of a fiddle in a play if you want to, so do you.

Speaker 5: 38:12

I guess what. How large is your team? Because I'm almost wondering is, I would think, having a lab room like that with equipment that's essentially mirroring or close to matching what you have out in production? You're going to want that, at least some sort of change control to make sure that you're making changes to what is matching in production today and somebody doesn't come in behind you and mess with it. So do you treat it kind of like a mirror of production or is it more of a playground?

Speaker 4: 38:43

So we try to keep it as a mirror, like I say. So in our main pops we don't have it like for like devices because the cost in the lab would just be humongous, but we try to keep like the key devices in our lab downstairs. But obviously if you do need to go make any changes potentially on the devices that you are going to configure, then you can just log into the lab, make your changes. Say, if you potentially just wanting to run specific commands on a Junos device, then you can just log in, run your commands, make sure that they're running fine. And the best thing is that obviously you've got the software. The firmware versions are exactly what they are in production as well. So you know that bugs and things like that not going to run into.

Speaker 5: 39:34

Can you kind of walk us through what day in the life if there is a typical one of what a core engineer would look like? Because I mean, like we just said, if you're making changes, you're probably doing it in now with service provider. There are no off hours, right, your networks need to be up 24 by seven, but you're typically making changes to the network that could be impactful or at least could shift traffic to, you know, another side of the ring or whatever you want to call it. You're probably doing it in off hours. So what are you doing during the day? Are you planning network changes and upgrades? Are you doing operations, break, fix kind of stuff? What is a typical day, if that exists, look like for you.

Speaker 4: 40:17

I wouldn't necessarily say that every day is the same. There's always different things that are happening. So it could potentially be like one thing at the minute is I'm looking to get some new links into, upgrade some of our core links, so putting another 100 gig in, well, a couple of 100 gig links in. So I'm having to speak with different spies, get them in, make sure that they patch, speak with the DC team, get the optics out, make sure that all of them are in. And then on the other side of thing is we could potentially just have just generic day to day changes, adding VLANs, removing configuration, that sort of stuff, and then these just working with the knock, speaking with like wholesale partners getting configuration added on their perspective training. But I said that these not necessarily two days, that they say and I think that's one of the best things about it that it's just constantly learning, it never ends, it's not exhausting at all.

Speaker 2: 41:18

It's great how much of your job is capacity planning, because you mentioned you're bringing in some new 100 gig links.

Speaker 5: 41:29

Is that on you as your role to monitor the network and to suggest when, hey, we're starting to bring out a lot more customers and that's what we're doing, we're getting to X% of our max bandwidth and, hey, we think we need to do something. Is that part of your role? No, so we actually have another person in the company whose job it is to have a look at that, see if any links are running hot to try and basically build a graph as to where they think that we're going to go.

Speaker 4: 41:59

And then we're going to have a look at the other people that are going to be working on that, build a graph as to where they think that we're going to be. So they'll basically say we think that we're going to be at this point where we may potentially need to upgrade this link for scalability reasons. Make sure there's no congestion, things like that. So, luckily for us, the good part is just getting the hands on.

Speaker 1: 42:21

So, ethan, I want to step back a moment. How did you go, or how did you get to the core? You saw a position open up, you applied. Did you make friends with some core engineers and say, hey, I want to do what you're doing? How did you make that jump? Because that sounds like a big jump.

Speaker 2: 42:38

I want to guess it was more money.

Speaker 4: 42:42

It was, but I was actually. I was poached, so I was at my previous company for about 10 months and then, yeah, I just got a message on LinkedIn to say that we're currently recruiting for a core network engineer. And I was like I heard core network engineer and my ears popped up and I was like really, oh, so point of clarification then.

Speaker 1: 43:10

the company that you were working for before you made the jump to the core is not the same company you got recruited to come on to the core team for somewhere else.

Speaker 4: 43:19

Yes, yeah, it's not the same team. Apologies if I didn't make that clear.

Speaker 1: 43:25

No worries, it was kind of like an assumption I was making, like you made that leap inside the company that you're working at, but now I know. So it sounds like you were headhunted, maybe a little bit.

Speaker 4: 43:37

Yeah, pretty much. But I completely surprised that, to be honest, because I didn't think I was at that level and when I went for the interview they were asking me certain questions and I'll just, I'll be up front and honestly I'm going up. Okay, okay, okay.

Speaker 2: 43:53

We need to slow down and talk about this.

Speaker 4: 43:55

I had a similar experience at an.

Speaker 2: 43:56

ISP right. So you had the technical interview and you know I forget it because it's been a long time, but I forget if it's like four, six, eight, like different protocols stacked on each other to make all that MPLS magic, routing instance, stuff. Like you know you're it's shared infrastructure but you're segmenting all the traffic. There's all kinds of privacy concerns and SLAs, like it's just, it's insane how it all works. It really is magic. I think aliens just handed it to us. There's no way people are that smart. But so that technical interview, were you prepared for it? Did anybody give you a heads up? Did you just like walk in and just get like destroyed? Because it sounds like you were honest, which is really good.

Speaker 2: 44:37

I was asked about BGP when I went to the Comcast knock and I told him I'm like it wasn't on the CCNA blueprint when I took it. I told him a little bit that I knew, which was hardly anything. But I think being transparent and honest about what you don't know, because we've heard so many people like Tim for some reason comes to mind on a hey, like they know the answer. So don't lie, don't try to like don't you know, just just be honest, because nobody can know everything Right. So if you say you don't know, you know, but you can learn new technologies. I mean, if you know OSPF, you can learn BGP right. So I'll shut up now. But how was that interview? Was it intense?

Speaker 4: 45:12

Yes, I mean the personal side of things were perfectly fine. But yeah, when they kind of go on to the technical, I mean I did quite a bit of research, as the night before I pretty much just had a look at the job description and Google every single thing that were on there just to try and cover my back. But I mean, the good thing is I've done quite a lot of studying in between moving jobs well, moving jobs from DT to the next company and then from there onwards, I've done quite a lot of labbing and done a lot of revision. So a lot of it was kind of familiar to me. But yeah, when they asked me certain questions, so it was like things like BGP, ospf, I was kind of okay with that.

Speaker 4: 45:55

I asked me about ISIS. I was like I have no idea what that is. And then they kind of started going into like root targets, root extinguishers, layer two, layer three, vpns, and I'm just like, yeah, I'll be completely honest with you, like I don't really know what it is, but I can have a look into it as soon as I come out of this interview and I can get back to you on it. But exactly like you said and, honestly is the best policy, and I think when you kind of go into those interviews, it's not something you can lie about, because they'll call you up on it straight away.

Speaker 2: 46:32

So and because they came after you, I'm guessing they saw talent in you and right, you said, you kind of got poached, you got recruited. So it's almost like hey, this guy's smart, he's a hard worker, he's good with customers, let's go get him. I mean, I'm guessing that's kind of how it went right.

Speaker 4: 46:48

I mean I wouldn't say smart, but yeah, I mean. The thing is I did quite a lot of posts into, obviously, Twitter and LinkedIn, so I think one of the main potential reasons is I was just key. I enjoy doing what I'm doing. I enjoy showing what I'm doing, speaking with different people in the community, things like that. And I think one of the best things is you can't necessarily teach enthusiasm Like you can teach someone to do a job.

Speaker 2: 47:21

but you can't teach someone enthusiasm. It's hard to fake too. Yeah, 100% yeah. And you being so I mean I know I don't know how much time we have here, but I know that you being involved on Twitter or on LinkedIn and the Discord community, I feel that that also shows passion and excitement about what you're doing. Right, you're outside of your own time, you're contributing, you're helping, you're in the conversations. I feel like that goes really far and you have the soft skills, you have the technical skills. You do extracurricular things around technology because you're passionate. I mean, that's like the trifecta right there in my opinion.

Speaker 4: 47:59

Yeah, 100%, and I mean luckily for me, throughout my career I've had quite a lot of people who I look up to, mentors, and a lot of the stuff that I do for the community is giving back. So I mean I'm doing quite a lot of work with Burnley College, where I actually did my networking course. I've recently got them linked up with Juniper and they're actually now a Juniper partner as well as a Cisco partner. So just helping like the students be able to have the opportunity is that I've had, now that I've been sort of in the field I don't want to say for quiet some time because I've not been here long. I've been in about eight years in total but just being able to give back and just wanting people to succeed, I think that's just one of the best things.

Speaker 2: 48:53

Absolutely.

Speaker 5: 48:54

Yeah, there's a lot to be said for paying it forward. So, ethan, we've talked a lot about education and people in this field that want to keep furthering their knowledge, and one way that you have done that, and continue to do that, is through certifications. Do you have any tips and tricks for those out there that might be wanting to jump into some of the same stuff that you have as far as how do you approach a new certification, how do you figure out what it is you should go after, and then how do you prepare for that exam?

Speaker 4: 49:27

So I've been working on pretty much only Juniper certification since I kind of moved into this role. So I'll explain it as if I'm doing my IPSP exam, which is what I'm studying for now. So essentially, the way that I kind of break down the exam is I will go through the material on Juniper Open Learning. I'll basically take all the notes through all of the different modules that you have, so Layer 2 VPNs, layer 3 VPNs, everything inside it, as well as the routing protocol module. What I'll then start to do from that is I'll then have a look at labbing up the specific scenarios for that Layer 2 VPNs, layer 3 VPNs or the routing protocols, having always comparing it to the blueprint, making sure that I'm staying on track with what is relevant.

Speaker 4: 50:24

Once I've then sort of done the labbing, I'll then read through my notes, but on the areas that I don't necessarily know, I'll have a look for like specific documentation around that, just obviously making sure that it's Juniper, so that it's correct essentially, and then after that, potentially, if I've got time, I'll maybe try and watch a different video series, whether it is Black CBT, nuggets, just because sometimes you may potentially have one teacher or one video that explains it one way and you could potentially have a different trainer, like Nox, who explains it a different way, and you understand it the second way rather than the first. So that's kind of the way that I'd attack it. Obviously, I'm trying to do practice tests, the two that you get on the portal, but yeah, that's sort of my way that I plan for exams.

Speaker 2: 51:23

Did you talk about labbing? Did I miss it? Yes, it's getting late here. My brain's getting fuzzy, so happy. So, you're labbing. That's good. I'm glad we talked about it you think it's late here.

Speaker 1: 51:37

It's late where he's at man hey, but he's like 17. He's got all the energy in the world.

Speaker 5: 51:44

Andy needs some of that English tea you were talking about earlier.

Speaker 1: 51:51

Oh, that's good, I drifted off apologies.

Speaker 2: 51:55

Where do you see the future go, man? Are you just a diehard service provider? I mean, is that just where the job is, or do you love service provider and that's really where your heart is and you want to do that long term?

Speaker 4: 52:06

I definitely think, now that I'm kind of getting comfortable being in the service provider and now I'm understanding it a lot more I mean comparing SP to Enterprise it's a lot more interesting, especially when you start deep diving into MPLS and like layer two VPNs, layer three VPNs and inter-provider options. And yeah, I mean never say never.

Speaker 4: 52:32

I don't know what the future holds, but yeah, love the SP life. Compared to enterprise, what I've been in before just a lot more interesting, it's a lot. It's a lot more fast paced as well, which is why I enjoy and enjoy being busy rather than just kinda sitting about waiting for tickets to come in.

Speaker 2: 52:53

What's the career path that service provider look like? What would you do after core? Is there a clear path?

Speaker 4: 52:59

Yeah, so it'd be network architecture and that would sort of be the next step. Obviously you've got your seniors and and tales in between, but the next step from from core is these, network design really, and I mean that's sort of like the real end goal for me. So, network architect and and a JNC, I is where I want to be in like the next five to seven years, that's so yeah, I love it.

Speaker 2: 53:29

Do you have to do a good to do maintenance? Is your day shift, the do both like. Are you working nights and making changes?

Speaker 4: 53:36

Yes, so I normally work like eight to four and but then obviously you're on call and maintenance windows. I'm doing some maintenance Last night until I'm thinking about half one to a court.

Speaker 2: 53:49

So the in the morning. Overnight shift doesn't do that for you. You have to come in at night. If you worked on the day, you'll have to do maintenance is at night.

Speaker 4: 53:56

Yes, so it's only our knock, who are 24, seven and but the actual core team are only Monday to Friday. We've got on call but for any changes sort of normally we call it level three. Potentially some level fours are above normally 10 to do out of hours.

Speaker 2: 54:16

I think we're getting close to the end. But I have to ask and I think this is all I got, guys, feel free to tell me, none of your business, we can't talk about that. But are you leveraging any automation in all this stuff? Are you writing? I always wrote. You know every script I dropped by hand and a notepad plus plus. You know copy and pasting and right like load terms, set whatever, show, pipe, compare, and so are you leveraging any automation? Are you allowed to talk about that?

Speaker 4: 54:43

Yeah, I mean recently we've had a project that's been ongoing for I think it's like the past four years and so essentially we were looking at expanding out exchange blueprint, so going into different BT exchange is just to basically have growth of the business. And I mean this was before I started, but a lot of the configuration that I was on manual and it's got to a point now where one of our engineers has pretty much wrote scripts for everything so important information into net box, creating an actual baseline for the device that goes out. We we're not fully, fully automated, but we definitely on the on the tracks of becoming automated.

Speaker 2: 55:32

You're on the journey, you have a source of truth. You said net box and you're leveraging Python and ansible all of it.

Speaker 4: 55:39

Yeah, python and ansible and gingers templates, and I think that's what they are. I'm not fully there yet with the automation side of things and they just kind of like buzzwords and for some of our more experienced engineers.

Speaker 2: 55:52

And before, when you said ginger templates oh my god, he knows what he's talking about. I can spell ginger.

Speaker 1: 56:00

That's awesome, ethan. I just want to echo what you said earlier, like if, if you're trying to learn something and you don't pick it up right away, don't feel like I can never learn this. Seek out, you know, there's a bunch of YouTube videos on any given topic, right like subnetting. I took college classes. I learned how to submit in college. I thought I learned how to subnet in college. It turns out I kind of grasped the concept of it. I didn't really get it all that well. It wasn't until later on in my career like much later on in my career that I watched a course. I think it was a Pluralsight course or maybe I was reading a book, I can't remember now. But the instructor just completely spun how to subnet and I was like, oh my god, I get it now.

Speaker 2: 56:47

I actually get it now. When you say you get it, can you look at like an address with a slash and know exactly like host, range and like no matter what it is? I always have to cheat and look at it.

Speaker 1: 56:59

At one point I could, because I practice it so much. But now I don't. I can look at the slash and I can know the subnet mask, but I would still have to look up the range and the mask.

Speaker 2: 57:09

I never got good at subnetting. I blame my mathematical aptitudes. But somebody is asking in the chat to network engineers subnet by hand or do they all use a tool? I'm guessing we're all using subnet calculators.

Speaker 1: 57:21

Honestly, I think it depends on how often you have to do it. I don't have to subnet very often because the networks I'm dealing with are already designed. They're already built. I'm not adding new stuff and if I am, it's usually the customers assigning the IP ranges for what I'm doing, so I don't have to subnet a whole lot.

Speaker 2: 57:41

It depends on the environment too, maybe because I was a WAN guy and we were usually slash 30s or slash 31s.

Speaker 1: 57:46

So just because I did it so much.

Speaker 2: 57:49

Yeah, I knew, just looking at it like I had zero, one, two, three, four, five, I could do the math quick in my head. The two addresses in that range, and I mean if you're using NetBox, it automatically does it for you.

Speaker 4: 58:03

So that's another way that you leverage it. Like I can't actually remember the last time that I actually had to do manual subnetting, If Roddy Hassan is out there listening to this, they use slash 31s, Roddy.

Speaker 1: 58:15

We're all using slash 31s.

Speaker 2: 58:17

It's like Roddy's trigger word of like no, it's not right. It's not how they wrote the thing. They're like dude. Everybody uses slash 31s and WAN.

Speaker 5: 58:27

Followed by IPv6.

Speaker 1: 58:30

That's great. So, ethan, if you were going to try to pitch service provider life or recruit somebody into what you do, how would you do it? What are some of the things you love about what you do? Everything.

Speaker 4: 58:48

It's a simple way to put it. I mean what I said there's just so many benefits that you've got in a service provider network. It's just you can just deep dive so many new and upcoming technologies, different vendors, just getting so much exposure to all different areas and just working with really, really talented engineers. I mean I'm not saying there's not talented engineers and enterprise, but kind of for the SP tracks, it's like I haven't seen a lot of people who are really specifically certified in that, so he's not really a lot of training. But yeah, just service provider, it's just great.

Speaker 2: 59:26

He just pulled an almost famous line. It's a movie I don't know if anybody here has seen, but at the very end of the movie this kid who's been trying to interview this rock star through the whole movie finally gets his interview. They're sitting on a bus and he you know whatever the guy's name is. He says you know. First question what do you love about music? The guy goes well, to start with everything.

Speaker 4: 59:44

You just gave the everything answer. What do you love? About service provider Everything man, but it probably shows your passion too.

Speaker 2: 59:50

You just you've found your niche, You've, you know, you love what you're doing and it is a never ending just rabbit hole of technology that you could never, you'll never get to the end right, Learning all the stuff going on in the service provider network.

Speaker 1: 1:00:04

Yeah, yeah, absolutely You've seen Chris's comment there. Yeah, some enterprises get so big they actually implement service provider technology for themselves. Yeah, that's very true, some of their WANs can get very large.

Speaker 2: 1:00:16

So at my old, one of my old jobs, yeah, we, we built our own MPLS backbone, we meeting them, and I just sat there going, whoa, this is cool, yeah, but he's right Now you get big and all these kind of create your own backbone.

Speaker 4: 1:00:31

It's like the dark hearts really. When you kind of get into that.

Speaker 1: 1:00:35

I love it. I love it, Ethan. This has been a super fun conversation. Unfortunately, we got to put a wrap on it. Where can people find you if they want to learn more about you and follow you?

Speaker 4: 1:00:44

Yes, so people can find me on LinkedIn, ethan Jackson, and you can find me on Twitter. My handle is Ethanette, so that's ETH4N3T Awesome.

Speaker 1: 1:00:56

I will drop both of those in the show notes. Ethan, thank you so much for joining us tonight. This has been so much fun. Any any last minute like what should we have asked you? Maybe we didn't. Any any last minute thoughts before we depart here.

Speaker 4: 1:01:10

No, it's been an absolute pleasure then, Elman. I really enjoyed it.

Speaker 1: 1:01:13

Absolutely Likewise, and thank you so much for joining us and you can finally go get some sleep, because I think we're coming up on like what?

Speaker 4: 1:01:21

three o'clock in the morning there, two o'clock in the morning.

Speaker 2: 1:01:24

Yes, sun's coming up soon. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you might as well, stay up, man. Just go put a pot of coffee and you'll be fine.

Speaker 4: 1:01:32

Yeah, it'll be up in about two hours. Study for that next cert.

Speaker 2: 1:01:35

How are you going to get the JNCAE? If you're asleep, buddy, come on, man, get out of here.

Speaker 4: 1:01:41

Early mornings maybe.

Speaker 1: 1:01:43

There, you go. All right, Ethan. Thanks again for joining us. Go get some shut-eye and we will see you next time on the next episode of the Art of Network Engineering Podcast.

Speaker 3: 1:01:54

Thanks for watching A1. Oh yeah, hey everyone.

Speaker 1: 1:02:01

This is AJ. If you like what you heard today, then make sure you subscribe to our podcast and your favorite podcast, or smash that bell icon to get notified of all of our future episodes. Also follow us on Twitter and Instagram. We are at Art of NetEng, that's Art of N-E-T-E-N-G. You can also find us on the web at ArtOfNetworkEngineeringcom, where we post all of our show notes. You can read blog articles from the co-hosts and guests, and also a lot more news and info from the networking world. Thanks for listening.