Speaker 1: 0:00

This is the Art of Network Engineering, where technology meets the human side of IT. Whether you're scaling networks, solving problems or shaping your career, we've got the insights, stories and tips to keep you ahead in the ever-evolving world of networking. Welcome to the Art of Network Engineering podcast. My name is Andy Lapteff and in this episode I am joined by the man, the myth, the legend, one of my favorite people that I got to meet in person not too long ago at a USNUA event, and I can't wait to see him again. It's not going to come soon enough. William Collins what's up, william?

Speaker 2: 0:32

How's it going? Yeah, looking forward to hanging out in person again. Denver right, You're going to be in Denver. I'm going to be in Denver. Hopefully you're going to record a podcast poolside. Spoiler alert, maybe I'm I'm trying to figure out the craziest thing. My in-laws happen to live less an hour or less away from where andy lives, so I go and spend part of the summer there. So, hey, why not?

Speaker 1: 0:58

if I'm there, he's there, he lives there, you know well he's been summering like an hour from my house for years and never once thought hey, andy, what's up? Man, maybe I should stop by and hang out. So I don't know what took so long, but I'm glad that our relationship has progressed to the point where you're willing to come visit me.

Speaker 2: 1:14

It's like the vision is aligned with reality.

Speaker 1: 1:16

Let's go uh and uh, we have a very special guest on this episode. So, um, this gentleman's name is Muna Muna. Well, I'm going to let Muna tell you who he is. So, muna, who are you? What do you do, where do you work? And tell us a little bit about yourself.

Speaker 3: 1:33

Okay, so my name is Muna. I'm originally from Nigeria. The full name of the name is Muna Chimso. It's a very long name. Yeah, muna Ch chimso um. It means god and I together. Um. So, yeah, so I came from like. I came to united states 2018 school. Of course, you're working, um as a network automation engineer at google.

Speaker 1: 1:57

Yeah, and I'm sorry, where. What's the name? That's google place. I never heard of that company, I just wanted oh, oh yeah, so it's a very small company is that a startup?

Speaker 3: 2:06

it must be a startup a very small startup in sf.

Speaker 1: 2:10

Yeah, just just look at their stock. If they ever go public, that might, they might turn into nothing someday yeah, I think you should, I think you should so I'm obviously being silly, right I so? So I'm gonna reach out and and said hey man, I've been listening to the show, I'd love to come. I'm a network automation engineer at Google and I fell out of my seat. I'm like whoa, this is amazing, right To speak to.

Speaker 1: 2:30

Yeah, right To get to speak to someone who works at a fan company, right. The problems and the scale that Google operates on, I'm just fascinated with. I think it's amazing. We have another mutual friend, william, and I, who works at Google and I just hear the things that people at Google are working on and like, wow, that's just really amazing Again, the scale like working on global problems, right, solving huge problems. And listen, I'm not trying to say that I'm the old guy on this call right now, but I see that you graduated. I know that I don't look it right. I mean, wow, andy, I thought you just got out of university as well, but I'm looking at don't laugh too hard, I'm looking at your LinkedIn and it looks like you graduated college in 2022. Is that somewhere around, correct?

Speaker 1: 3:20

Okay, so three years ago, less than so you're three years out of school, three years out of university and working at Google. I'm trying to think of what I was doing three years out of school. I think I don't. I was not doing great in my career. So you da man, good job. I grad, you know I come out of school and started Google. So you know we talked earlier about this before we started recording.

Speaker 1: 3:41

I don't want to, I don't want to spend a ton of time on your story, even though it's about 15 minutes old, because you're freshly out of school working at Google. But how, how does one like, did you start at Google? I mean, it's so. Your resume is amazing, like I see the internships you did, and so I guess, for someone listening, I was a person who was a cable guy for an ISP and wanted to be a network engineer. I was in my 30s. I'm starting kind of my career over mid-career kind of like transition. I want to get into tech. Blah, blah, blah. You have a very different story. It seems you look very focused, at least on paper. So did you always know you wanted to get into tech? Did you know that you would graduate college and work at one of the biggest companies in the world? What's?

Speaker 1: 4:20

your deal, man how did you do it Like what's your deal, man? How did you do it? Thanks?

Speaker 3: 4:24

Thank you so much. So I would say it's different. It's a bit different mainly because, like you mentioned, a lot of folks in the network engineering space they've been here like for a while start from like tech, then move up. But I think my case was like when I wanted to. I know I shouldn't go too far but, like you mentioned, it's not too far back.

Speaker 3: 4:45

So I think networking for me started when I was trying to get into college and I knew I was going to be in tech. I didn't just know where and I didn't. I tried your regular web dev and I didn't like it. So I knew, okay, it wasn't computer science. So I cause I didn't really like the idea of just sitting down building websites and that was, that was the idea of computer science I had. So then, doing some research, I discovered networking, which sounded very interesting, like oh, okay, so there's a field that actually so the folks that actually build the internet I can actually study that. That was like the view I had. I was like, okay, let's go with that.

Speaker 3: 5:21

Then, coming into college taking, I saw that okay, this is a field where not a lot of my friends are doing. I was like we're very few in my college so I studied computer networking and IT. So now a lot of people when I tell them that was my undergrad I was like that is very focused Because most times undergrad is like an IT degree. Then later on you come in networking. But this program was like a very focused program at Alcon State it's in Mississippi. So computer networking and IT and from day one is like the basis of networking, still with IT, but it's like an emphasis on networking. So I knew that and I enjoyed networking, like from reading it I just liked it.

Speaker 1: 6:03

So one second. I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I have to. So I thought you were a computer science major, which I guess I mean computer networking. But you're not comp sci.

Speaker 1: 6:12

Yeah, I'm not comp sci. That's interesting to me Also. A lot of conversations I've been having the past few years I've been getting feedback that less and less colleges are teaching networking, I think in the comp sci context, that less and less colleges are teaching networking, I think in the comp sci context. So I'm happy to hear that there are still computer networking Programs, concentrations out there and programs. What I'm really interested in you said you always knew you wanted to work in tech. Where did that come from? How did you know that? Do you have peers or a parent or someone in tech? And then how did you get interested in networking? Because usually when I speak to someone and how did you get interested in networking? Because usually when I speak to someone, they have this moment where they kind of started to learn how networking works and kind of got the bug. They fell in love like, oh my God, I can't believe this is how it happened. So how did you know you wanted to work in tech?

Speaker 3: 6:56

Yeah, I think that first question is just growing up. I saw myself because, living in Nigeria, there's not a lot of tech advancement like in the US. So the little things of, okay, using my mom's phone and I do something for her, I solve an issue for her, and she's like, oh my God, you're so good. So I think it was my prick. I think, looking at it back, it was just my parents that actually just emphasize that oh, I'm actually handy with phones or computers. I think we're more in the family Exactly so.

Speaker 1: 7:24

You were fixing iPhones and people thought you were technically skillful. So I was the only. You don't even know what a VCR is, probably, but I was the only person in our family that could program a VCR. These are things we used to use to record television, and they had old magnetic tapes that you'd have to put in and you'd have to go into the menu and set a day, a channel and a time that you wanted to record from until you didn't just push in GUI somewhere. So, yeah, this I'm William. Do you see what's happening? I'm teaching him you're on mute, william.

Speaker 2: 7:55

I'm teaching him what a VCR is in real time I was going to say like doing that programming the VCR is like more is like more painful than like fixing python dependency like just heck sprawl but my family thought I was brilliant.

Speaker 1: 8:07

They're like oh, he can talk to the machine, so that's all, it's all context.

Speaker 2: 8:12

But I but I love how you were fixing iphones, I was fixing ehs, I was fixing machines you can't even buy anymore well, with all the time that you put in vcrs and all that old stuff, you probably could have learned spanish and three other languages and be fluent in like four programming languages.

Speaker 1: 8:28

So if I only had any direction or any mentorship, which is kind of what I was digging at muna and I'm so. You grew up in nigeria. You said, yes, how old were you when, when you moved to the states?

Speaker 3: 8:39

so 2018, that was 17.

Speaker 1: 8:42

Okay, wow, yeah a huge culture shock. I mean what? What a different place. You were right, yeah.

Speaker 3: 8:47

It was totally different. Yeah, it was like. Yeah, it took me a while to realize, okay, stuff, I've done this way, I can't even start, that it won't finish, but it was totally different.

Speaker 1: 8:58

What drove the move? Was it to come for opportunity or yeah it?

Speaker 3: 9:02

was just for school, okay. Was it to come for opportunity? Yeah, it was just for school, okay, I suppose. Since my mom believed that was very tech savvy, she felt like my older siblings. They went the medical route. So they're already good universities in Nigeria for medicine, biology. But my mom knew that, okay, it was more computer science, tech, it, and they felt like, oh, I'll get better opportunities here for that field. So we applied and so it's actually a thing of, oh, if you get a scholarship, because the schools here are very expensive. So it was a question of, if you get a scholarship, good, if you don't, you just go to school in Nigeria. So I applied to both. Actually, I applied to the school in Nigeria and school in the US. I actually started the school in Nigeria for about a month in. Then the offer letter with a scholarship came from US. I was like, yes, so, yeah. So that was like all that happened there and I came to the US, did you?

Speaker 1: 9:56

come here yourself. Did your mom come with you?

Speaker 3: 9:59

No, I came myself, my friend and I, we were two, so we applied together, we both got in to the same school, so we came together alone. And it's very funny because I was 17 then and that time he was 16 and you need, if you're 16 and under, you need a guardian.

Speaker 2: 10:16

So I was his technical I love that you can rub that in all day long Senior rude.

Speaker 1: 10:26

You're still telling us and the courage it takes to do what you did. I just don't want to pass by too quickly because I've spent a little bit of time here and there in other countries visiting where I didn't speak the language there and it was so intimidating and so hard to do anything. I was deep in France and I was trying to buy a bottle of water and they didn't speak english and I didn't speak french and I had a hell of a time. I might have spent 100 us dollars on this little bottle of water because I didn't understand the currency, I didn't understand the price. I put money. Now they started to back up like she wasn't yelling at me so I thought we were my dude. I mean, I, I know you spoke the language, but just to come to a different culture, a different place, a different, it's just such a. To me it's such a courageous act, because I know the other side of that and it's scary, it's scary.

Speaker 2: 11:09

Yeah, yeah. Well, at least in France you're around people that have great attitudes and never get seedy or anything. You know right, that's only up north.

Speaker 1: 11:19

In the country, they're much nicer. No, no, it's the other way around. You're right Up north, it's the touristy part, so they're nice. You get down south, yeah, they're like we're not helping you, buddy. So, wow, you and a friend you said came and they were 16, you were 17. That's really amazing. Is school a lot different in the States? Was it a big culture shock?

Speaker 3: 11:40

Yeah it method of teaching, like it's totally different For one the schools, like even the grading system. So in Nigeria an A is 70 of 100. In the US it's 90. However it looks we're so dumb here. No, it's because like it's so hard, not because how the? Because the stuff is pretty much the same, but like it's so hard to get that 70 because of like the lecturers are very strict with like in us I heard you can cover grade. That wasn't a daily school, right, you get your score. You get your score if you're solved, like in physics, and if you're solving or you don't put your units, you lose mark, you fail the question. So there was like it's like it's so hard they are trying to see who can pass. It's like it's so hard they are trying to see who can pass. It's like not everybody's going to pass, just the elite of the elite would pass. But in US it's very different. It's very encouraging, like they want everybody to pass. There's this like okay, everybody can actually learn and do it well and pass.

Speaker 1: 12:39

So it's like I'm surrounded by idiots here. This is great. Oh, yeah, Well idiots here.

Speaker 3: 12:51

This is great, oh yeah. Well, like it's just, I met some dumb dog who's excited about programming a vcr. I'll be fine here, yeah, yeah, no, no, no, no, no, go ahead, go ahead I I didn't want to cut you off.

Speaker 1: 12:59

I I'm curious to to when did you get the network bug? Like when did you get? How did you go from fixing mom's iphone to like, oh my god, networking's amazing. I want to do this for my life.

Speaker 3: 13:09

When it's more of a, it's different. So all the schools I was checking when I was applying for schools, all these schools. I was checking for computer science, computer science. Then I saw this random school computer networking, and I see what's that? Then I just just started reading. It sounded interesting. I'm like, why not? And another difference like in Nigeria, when you apply for a program you can't just change your major, like that is what you're going to do for four years. So you have to like make a good decision at a young age. But I heard in US you can always change your majors. So I was like, oh, it sounds different. If I don't like it I can always switch it out. But yeah, it's different, let's go. And that was like the one of the best decisions I've ever made, like I really learned it didn't like it right.

Speaker 1: 13:49

You said you're doing like web dev or something like that.

Speaker 3: 13:51

Yeah I tried some html css, although looking at it that's not all about computer science. But at that point I thought that is all about it. So when I tried html css it, I said, okay, it might be the thing for me. Did you do any coding?

Speaker 2: 14:07

during that time, like as you were kind of figuring out that you wanted to do networking. Was it something you were kind of in a little bit Like software development principles or anything, or did that come kind of after the network engineering?

Speaker 3: 14:19

So I think coding for me was while in school, when I realized that the market was shifting. Because while in school I realized that the market was shifting because in. So while in school, my first year, second year, just reading, I took the committee at a plus by my like my sophomore year, um then. So I now trying to get internships and also like they are only software engineering jobs all day and so for most of the jobs for internships are like coding heavy. So, okay, maybe I have to learn coding myself, because the it program had some coding courses, but just basic courses. So I'm like, okay, maybe I have to actually learn this myself. So I reached out to my computer science friends okay, I know, I said I don't like you guys, but looks like I might like you guys and I and I. But it was not different for me because I said, okay, this is more network automation and not just web dev. I'm not building websites, I don't even need to know anything about HTML, css.

Speaker 1: 15:11

So were you saying when you were looking for internships, you couldn't find networking internships? Most of them are coding. Is that, yes? Did I catch that? Wow, yes.

Speaker 3: 15:18

Okay. So most of the internships out there, especially for like it's like software heavy internships, Even internships out there, especially for like it's like software heavy internships, Even the networking ones, there was some level of automation required. So that's when I started doing some research and I was like I think I entered at the sweet spot because I saw that, okay, the market is shifting where, okay, networking is needed, but they want people to code, they want people to be able to automate their systems.

Speaker 1: 15:45

So that's when I knew that, okay, this is a very, very mature insight. And I'm not, I swear to God, I'm not hung up on age, I'm really not but the maturity of that insight and William, correct me if I'm wrong, but because I'm a person who's been maybe the older you get, the more biased you are and it's harder to accept new ideas. But the the longer I've been in networking, the more I resisted automation, even though the market was changing. And I have since. I've realized, in my 40s, whatever, uh, slightly older than you the insight that you had that the market was changing. You seem to have it while you were in school, which I I think is brilliant, and you saw the skill set Right, william, like that's a pretty deep you weren't just looking at one signal or like hey, one thing that I hear so much, still, folks, your age is what?

Speaker 2: 16:34

OK, I'm going to give you like four options. Which one do you think will make the most money? And I'm like like that's what you want to find where you fit, what you're happy doing, where the market is going, Like there's all these different signals that you can take note of and that helps inform your decision. And that sounds like kind of what you did. You had like multiple signals in different places. You took those signals to make the best decision on how to progress, which I think is how did you determine that?

Speaker 1: 17:02

What were you? What signals, like William said, were you looking at that? You could see that the market was shifting and they wanted automation. And the reason I'm asking is we've been talking about network automation for decades and the adopter rates aren't that impressive. So for you to gain that insight, I think, is I mean, you're a great person basically Like for you again, because the industry hasn't. The industry is still trying to catch up to that insight that you had early on.

Speaker 3: 17:28

I think it's different because I think, like you mentioned, you were already in. Like a lot of people are like already in network engineers, but me I was looking at it from, I'm trying to get in. Okay, I like network engineering, but I was still looking at the tech space and all and everything. Tech space is software. So I even had friends that came in networking and they switched over to computer science but I genuinely actually liked networking. I think that was the center of my mind, like I actually like networking. So, because of everything is now software, I'm not just going to leave that.

Speaker 3: 17:57

So I now, okay, is there, what are the? Is it possible to still have that networking and just still code? Because is it possible to still have that networking and just still code? Because I feel, because I, like most of my study times was moved to my computer science friends, because that's the best way to learn how to code from. So I knew that, okay, I need the software skill. But I just felt it. I don't know if it's just guts, but I just liked and I already I think I already devoted a lot because I already took the computer a plus.

Speaker 3: 18:23

I was studying for the Network Plus at that time. So in my mind I'm like, okay, it looks like I've already devoted money to take it to IT, so I think I should stay here. But okay, software, well, it's not that bad, I can learn it. I'm still in school, so I can learn it. So I think that was the thing. So I saw that the whole tech space, not just network engineering, but the whole tech space, is software, and I saw that, okay, there was also a place in IT and networking for software and it's actually gaining. Gaining, what's the word? It's that gaining movement. Like a lot of people were talking about it at that time, like, okay, network. And then I just said, okay, python is the language. And I'm like, okay, everybody's talking about Python. Okay, at least it doesn't hate you when you learn CSS. It doesn't hate C Sharp, it doesn't hate any of those C++ or Python. I'm like, okay, let me try it out. I think that's where it's hit off.

Speaker 2: 19:13

So, yeah, one observation here, and I think one thing that's going to probably serve you really well, is that the market right now so so like I don't really know when this started, it's been maybe not 10 years, but that's like super valuable is to me like one of the most valuable types of practitioners out there is someone that like learned, uh, you know, say, network engineering, or you know sysadmin, server management, compute stuff, and then they layered on the programming experience on top of that for practical reasons and like learn progressively, like with their trade. So that's, I think that'll serve you well, having that, you know, a good, solid background in network engineering, while being able to do some you know where you're at probably some pretty good coding on top of it.

Speaker 1: 20:24

If I could, change anything about my career, it would have been to embrace programming much earlier and jumped into Python. Now I see the value and I'm amazed at what I'm learning. But it took me a while and I resisted. And, mooney, you made a good point Because you were trying to get in and you surveyed the landscape and you made a very good observation on the skills that were needed. I had been working in networking for eight or nine years without those software development skills, so my experience was they're different. Never the two, shall you know, meet. And that worked until it stopped working.

Speaker 1: 21:04

Honestly, right, I found myself, because I wasn't paying attention like you were and because, quite honestly, I had a negative experience as a computer science major, failing out of C++, made a decision that like, oh, I just I'm not smart enough to program. I can't figure this out. Now it turns out it wasn't true, but I carried that belief system with me for a really long time. And then the market, the job market, finally moved towards like hey, if you don't know programming, I mean we, we got ai, you better get some python. Buddy, like, what are you doing? So, um, yeah, if I could change anything, it would be to follow the path that you've, you know, been following this this whole time.

Speaker 2: 21:40

I think it's super, super smart thank you I got some practical questions if we want to jump into the day-to-day stuff. I'm just itching to ask um something you can't ask about google, william oh, the search engine is that we have to say schmoogle.

Speaker 2: 21:56

We can't say so. I mean just thinking about um, operating networks at scale, of course. Uh, you, I mean when I, when I first started doing any sort of programming, I think the first real language I used was pearl back in the day and there wasn't a lot of the fancy tools helping things, like it was general purpose programming languages, like expect, those types of things. But now there's like a nice, just suite of tools that you can use everywhere you know. So for cloud stuff, like you have like the terraform open tofu or like the domain specific cloud provider stuff. But then you also have a mishmash of like real you know, usually like Python or Go for networking, you know back end stuff, but like do you have a, do you have like a preferred method from the tool perspective? Like how do you view those tools?

Speaker 2: 22:44

Like Ansible, terraform, python, go like where do they fit and what you think is valuable for you know? Go like where do they fit and what you think is valuable for you know automating and network specific stuff, and it might help too. So I know enough about google where, like there's lots of different teams, lots of different types of infrastructure that do lots of different automation, so kind of like. I don't know if you can actually talk about the realm of the network that you you work in. That might shed some light as well.

Speaker 3: 23:12

Yeah, thank you. Then, just to give some background information before. So when I started with Python, so when I knew that, okay, networking was network automation, the language was Python. So, just to highlight, there was like a Coursera course. So when I first learned how to Python with you, demi, and some friends, then there was like this course, google this was actually a Google course Interesting. I didn't know what the outcome was. It was a Google IT automation with Python. So that gave me a lot of context to automation and Python. It's like a Coursera course. I took it like six courses. I took it and just opened my mind to like, okay, this is actually fun.

Speaker 3: 23:52

Then, specifically to google, I can mention we did do a lot of things. Then, first that, sorry, a disclaimer um, this is definitely just my thoughts. I'm not speaking on behalf of google. Um, yeah, this is definitely just me, my thoughts, my ideas. I'm not speaking on behalf of anybody. So, um, at most of all this top, because I also did like an internship at facebook, now meta, at college and what I've noticed like this, companies do things totally differently, like totally different, like some of the tools you mentioned.

Speaker 3: 24:28

I've only read about it and maybe done some tests with it but never used. Like Ansible, there's like always a Google or like a company specific stuff that is similar in some ways but it's different and because, like you mentioned, like Google, the scale at which they do stuff is incredible. Like it's they're talking about thousands or millions of devices. So you have to, they had to. They have like internal teams that build software to use of for just their use. So they have teams that build software for the deployment team. One of them, my current team, is one of those teams. We build workflows for some operations. So most of the tools we're using is, like you know, harry Prophet. But the common thing I'll say is like Python and Go. Like you mentioned, that is actually no more Python, actually it's just Go. So previously we used majorly Python, but there was this big shift in the company and like mostly Go, almost all systems. So I came into Google with Python, but now it's mostly Go lang I use all day.

Speaker 1: 25:32

I have a question, okay, why I'm not not related to your job, but as someone who's learning the very basics of python. Now I have friends who are like dude, just go with golang, don't even bother with python. So is there a reason to? I'm trying to ask you a question without making it about your work, but why would someone go from python to go so have certain benefits that Python doesn't Just technically not related to your job, technically?

Speaker 3: 25:56

For learning it first for you. I think with LearnPython you can learn Go as well, Like it's one and the same, but I found Go to be a lot faster, I think, when I because I was also curious why they made that shift and I realized that. So Python has a lot of libraries and where there are a lot of stuff that is packaged and packaged and packaged where you can't. Sometimes it's like you're writing in English. That's good about Python, but with that it's slow. It's a bit slow because of the all processing that it has done for you. So a friend of mine said like in there are two things. So most times is that the language is doing the processing or the engineer is doing the processing.

Speaker 3: 26:35

So if it's easy for you to write, it's most likely like a lot of backend processing is being done by the programming language. It makes it slow. But for a language like C++, where there's like a lot of syntax, a lot of you writing the logic like to just do something that might take five lines in Python and C++ is like 20 lines. So that is because that's still 20 lines. It's just done for you in the backend of the programming language.

Speaker 3: 27:01

So yeah, so I think we go learn the kind of founder and middle spot where it's not as slow as Python but it's also relatively easy, where there's some things in Python like it's also relatively easy, where, yeah, sometimes in Python like it's just one line, but in Go you have to write it yourself, like in three, four lines. I think Go just has that sweet spot between speed but also usability, and I think it was when I started at Google. So I don't even know the context between. I don't know much context with that, but like using Go, like Go is a wonderful language actually it's just made for network engineering.

Speaker 1: 27:34

Should I stick with Python and then learn Go, because I hear Python is the easiest as far as syntax and natural yeah, I think if I go back, I'll still learn Python first.

Speaker 3: 27:45

Okay, I'll stick with Python? Yeah, I think you should.

Speaker 2: 27:48

Yeah, I think you highlighted a pretty good issue there. So the big hyperscale networks that are just huge, the biggest out there, like for most networks out there, python's going to be fine. But operating at such a type of scale, you know, with Python being I can't think of the word interpreted, so you have this global interpreter lock that can basically like bottleneck the tarnation you know out of, like multi-threaded network apps. So you have that problem which really doesn't rear its ugly head until you're probably operating at some massive scale. But then, like even the standard like Golang has, like I can't remember the names like you have HTTP, like WebSocket, they have like a few standard libraries that cover most use cases that you're going to require. But when you deal with Python you're going to have a lot more. Like you were saying, with the library sprawl. It's a little complicated. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 28:40

I'm just going through the list here, one thing that I wanted to hit and we got away from. So I hate to go backwards here, but it looks like you did some kind of network operations residency program. So I, I guess you did a bunch of um, you were in school, you did a bunch of internships I see that there was a lot of python stuff in there which obviously has helped you tremendously and then so it looks like you got into, uh, your current employer with, I guess, some type of residency program that was two years. Are you able to speak to that at? Is that definitely a fresh grad coming in and like kind of a boot camp of like hey you're here, let's get going?

Speaker 3: 29:17

Yeah, so, like I mentioned, like you mentioned a lot of I think William mentioned it that a lot of new grads in schools there's software engineering, software engineering. So I think that is one effect in companies where they need like for most companies like there's not a lot of young folk interested in networking. So most of these companies I think Meta also has the program, I think most companies have these programs where they are trying.

Speaker 1: 29:43

Because it's a problem people are trying to figure out. I'm sorry to interrupt you. Yeah, do you know why you're so full of wonderful information? And like? I'm sorry I know I keep interrupting you, but like that's a big one right there, why doesn't anybody want to go into networking? I thought it was because we weren't teaching it. Here you are in a networking program, but your peers don't want to go into networking.

Speaker 3: 30:07

Is it just not an attractive field? Yeah, for one, not attractive. Yeah, yeah, I feel that's it. I think there's this thing where that is being pushed like software engineer, software engineer so definitely network engineering is not as attractive as that. But also I think it's also not being taught as much.

Speaker 3: 30:23

Because I had to go out of my way to be actually good at networking.

Speaker 3: 30:28

Yes, my school did a wonderful work, but to actually get these opportunities with, like MetaWire, I was in school with Lenovo I had to go out of my way to like get this Comtia certifications because I saw one. I started them as okay, means to study off, study, like personal study, then might as well just get a cert. But I saw how those certifications because a lot of these companies were actually, well, I say, impressed. But they like the fact that, oh, I have networking on the on Bagan, but I can still code, because most times is, oh, the young, the young people in the team, they have software, then the bit older folks, they are network gurus. So but I think one thing that helps me like stand out is the fact that, oh, I have the software skills but I also have a bit of the networking and I'm interested in networking, so they don't see that a lot. So when they see somebody actually interested in networking but can also code, that's like okay, that's a-, you're a unicorn.

Speaker 1: 31:21

You're like right.

Speaker 2: 31:24

I mean.

Speaker 1: 31:25

I've heard of you. There's one of you out there and, like you're the guy, it's me. Keep following this path right here.

Speaker 3: 31:35

this is I mean this is the path to success.

Speaker 1: 31:36

I think, right, yeah, this is so I. I'm sorry I know I interrupted you so you were getting out of school or a bunch of people they want to go into coding, and how did you find the residency program?

Speaker 3: 31:44

yeah, so I actually knew. So I knew the residency program like in my third year because I actually knew somebody in it. So I think that's how I first. So I knew a graduate from that program and he told me about it. I was like, oh awesome. So I just started and my fourth year I looked into it, then I applied. So the program is like so these top companies they're not trying to bring in people. Okay, the the bar for do you have to definitely be technical. They have interviews, but the bar to enter wasn't as high as like employing a network engineer at Google. So the bar is that okay, you're young and you really, really want to do networking, technical interview to get in yes and sell us about CCP to UDP, ccp.

Speaker 3: 32:27

That's the thing. So I think those questions CCP, udp, ospf, I think some dabbled in pgp, but it's just a bit but your regular network engineering interview, interview questions but they also asked interviews also based on like for some people that were more software but had the little network like I didn't have, like, I had little coded. But I heard from someone to that in the program that oh, she got a more coding question because that was her background. But these programs are like to get new grads into and teach them and train them in the networking space and after the two years rotation they get placed in a team in the networking space. It has a network engineer as a CPM, a network engineer, either as a network engineer, as a CPM, a network engineer. I think recently they've also been adding a pure software engineer, but in the networking space, in the network domain. So yeah, so that's the program.

Speaker 3: 33:19

So I found the program, I applied. So that's very, very straightforward. So I knew of the program. Actually, and funny, I applied for a cloud program because the network program wasn't yet available and the recruiter was like your resume looks good for this program. I was like yes, I know, but it's not yet out. So she was like, okay, let's pass on that. And when the network rotations opened up I applied for that. So it was just like a perfect fit for me and I guess I was lucky. But yeah, it was just a very good fit for me.

Speaker 2: 33:51

But, like I mentioned, the program for training new grads into the networking space this reminds me of like the nfl draft and you're like a high first round draft pick, so you're going through the motions and you have a lot of skills and experience from yeah, pretty awesome stuff. Isn't that kind of like how it feels like, with the intern program directly getting drafted to? I mean honestly, like the Patriots in your case, or some Titan, you know, snatching up trophies? So pretty cool.

Speaker 3: 34:21

Thank you, thank you.

Speaker 1: 34:23

I'm going to ask a question that is a little embarrassing to ask, but I see that I try to think of how to say things that don't sound like a complete jerk, but I see that you are. Well right.

Speaker 1: 34:34

Well. So what I'm looking at is you're a network automation engineer now. Prior to that, you were a network engineer. They're very to me. I guess what I'm trying to dig at is do you consider yourself a network engineer? What's behind that question is network engineer for me has been a very different experience than what I see in here. You have done you're, you've been coding, you've been resolving bugs, you've been doing all kinds of cool python and building custom applications to manage millions of devices. Like in my mind, a network engineer is different than a network automation engineer, and I don't know if that's a fair demark that I'm creating, but do you think that was two separate career fields?

Speaker 3: 35:17

Yeah, I totally agree with what you're saying Because I first started like my first rotations. I was doing like your basic logging into some devices. But it was like in a test lab, but logging into devices. I did some tests for JCP snooping. Then I got into more cases where they automate some deployments, write code to push some deployments from BGP. So I stopped writing the configs but now writing code to push it. But I do believe they are separate.

Speaker 3: 35:48

Actually, my current manager now but he always says that he thinks of us as process engineers or systems engineers, less of your, because he was also like the same way of okay, originally like pure network engineer and later on inside the system of like code. So he always believes that, okay, we're more of systems slash process engineers where we're writing code, but we're not actually doing your traditional BGP, ospf, isis, like you're not doing that anymore. And I agree with you. Personally I still like networking. That's why I now to still with my chest say I'm a network engineer. I now go out of my way to do some study. So I'm currently studying for the CCMP data center. I don't need it for work. It's not related to what I'm doing at all, but I'm just to say, I'm a network engineer.

Speaker 1: 36:48

Well, I mean, you're definitely a network engineer and I hope that didn't come across as me yeah yeah, but yeah I just because what's interesting to me in the industry is, like you had pointed it out earlier, we have comp sci students who come out and then maybe networking people that, like you know, is it easier to teach? Again, you're a unicorn, you came with both skill sets and you're very good at both. It sounds like networking and coding. But, know, is it easier to take a comp sci student who knows nothing about networking and teach them enough networking to be a network automation engineer? Right, like, is that a thing? Or can you take an older guy like me who only knows networking and it's like, okay, buddy, time to learn Python and Git and CICD pipelines and like? So I don't know where I'm going with all that, but it's just interesting to me. You have both.

Speaker 1: 37:33

And because what I find, a lot of the network automation tooling that I've used and not Python, like, not coding, but the actual tools people have created to me have always felt like and looked like something that were created by software development, people that never managed to network. So there was so much friction for people like me to try to use this. Like what is this thing? There's no networking context, this is all software dev. Like I hate it, right, but then someone like you who has done networking you're a network engineer, but you also bring that coding experience I'm guessing if someone like you created I don't know, let's say, a data center fabric automation platform, there'd be enough networking context in that tool for it to feel familiar to a trad net ops like me who's like you know what is this stuff.

Speaker 1: 38:20

So I don't know that the industry is changing. It's kind of interesting to me that these worlds are coming together and I guess the industry is trying to figure out how to navigate and go forward. I would love a tool written by you that when I look at it and use it it feels like networking and so software-y it's. You know we have to get old guys to automate and I just don't know how to do it with a lot of the tooling that I've touched.

Speaker 3: 38:45

Yeah, I totally understand and I agree with you and I'll give some examples. But to first answer your question, I think most companies are doing the route. So both ways, because I'm speaking to one of my coworkers. I heard at the time at one of the companies I worked at they were incentivized. What's the word? They were encouraging, yes, yes, they were encouraging network engineers to code by giving them a bonus If you lend it. And there was like this. The company had this system. So like a badge, like generally even the software engineers, there's this like to say. I'm proficient at the language, so normally software engineers are expected to have like to mark that badge, but they were encouraging network engineers by giving them a small bonus if you got that badge.

Speaker 1: 39:33

I would have placed my ass off if they paid me more.

Speaker 2: 39:36

Yeah, I mean that's awesome. That's a great way to learn.

Speaker 1: 39:40

Because my environment was. I couldn't find the time to do that. There was no incentive other than you're going to lose your job eventually and I'm like I'm drowning in maintenance windows. I don't know when to do it. If they incentivize me with money, that's really smart yeah.

Speaker 3: 39:52

So that company did that, where they were encouraging their network engineers to code also. They were now employing so, but they understood that the market space is mostly software engineers that have little to no networking. And that's this. Program's like um, the network rotations program they are, meta has something like that. But for new grads too, most of these companies they have programs where they bring you on, bring you on as a pure software engineer and teach you enough networking to code. That's the thing. So in that case Does that work?

Speaker 1: 40:25

Because, honestly, I feel like networking is easier than coding. I know that I'm biased and right, but I feel like it's easier to teach a software dev enough networking to get by than the reverse. Now, william isn't necessarily like. William's been coding forever, so I don't know which one of us is more representative of network engineers in general.

Speaker 2: 40:47

Probably you because I tried to get out of networking for like 20 years and I never could.

Speaker 3: 40:52

Probably you because I tried to get out of networking for like 20 years and I never could I think, like you mentioned, it's enough to go by, because I was in this team where previously I was in this team where they had a network engineering team, they had a software engineering team. So the network engineers will write the design doc, write what they want automated, then they pass it to the software team and the software team would write it up. So I was in the QA team and my job was to get the software, get the network requirements, get the code that was written and test it. Is the code doing what they said it should do? And two, is it actually working like fine bugs?

Speaker 3: 41:37

So I realized that there was this huge disconnect where the network engineers can make a mistake, like they can make a clear mistake that even the network engineer will be like oh, this is a clear error. Like a network engineer reading this will be like oh, this is obviously a mistake. But a software engineer has no context whatsoever that he codes it up. So when I'm reading the doc, I'm like this doesn't make sense. So when I'm reading the code, I'm like this doesn't make sense. So I went back to the doc. I'm like, oh, he made a mistake, but it was clear it's a mistake because I, because I have that like both domain, the knowledge from both domains, but so I saw that gap. But then I'm now seeing teams and I've seen them. They've been changing the structure where it's one team, the network engineer and the software engineer, like right now, my team, they are network engineers on the team and they are software engineers on the team.

Speaker 3: 42:26

Originally they are pairing them up, but now they're going to the stage where they are telling the network engineers to learn coding and they are telling the software engineers.

Speaker 1: 42:36

Are they teaching each other?

Speaker 3: 42:38

Yes, the goal is that after a while they should be swapping. If you speak to both people, you shouldn't know there's a difference that this one is a software engineer or this is a network engineer.

Speaker 1: 42:49

I would argue it's a much more effective way to learn. Yes, for someone like you to teach me coding, because if we were together and taught each other what we knew, then the paths I've tried, I think so they're seeing success in that. That's what they're doing and it's working.

Speaker 3: 43:06

Yeah, sorry, I didn't get the last part. My network first did.

Speaker 1: 43:11

It's okay. They're seeing success in pairing traditional network engineers and developers together and teaching each other Because everybody wins. I guess right. If we need the skill set you have, naturally because you're so brilliant and you saw the writing on the walls, but there's people like me who need to. I would have loved to have been paired with a developer and had a relationship with them and worked together.

Speaker 1: 43:38

We were always siloed and that didn't happen and I was on my own, like, okay, nice weekends, holidays, like teach yourself buddy, which just yeah, that says something.

Speaker 2: 43:42

you have to have the willingness to like learn. You want to have to want to do it, because if you don't really want to do it, you can get the mandate from, like, a leader and say, hey, go do this. Sit with this person and you can say, yeah, I'll do that, and then go and listen and not really let any of it sink in. You really have to want to get better. You have to want to improve and get you know those skills, and I do know a lot of people out there that are never going to code, they're never going to get AI skills under their belt, but they are like true, like they're doing things in the network space where all of their cycles are in the bits and the bytes of, like, deep network engineering. They don't have any time and the work they're doing is so important with as deep as they're going that they they need to stay there, because I don't know a lot of people that can do those types of jobs and dedicate their life to that trade and that aspect of that trade.

Speaker 1: 44:33

So Muna's skill set is the future, and I guess the future is now right. But so to have both Muna is the perfect recipe for success. But to William's point, if you're out there and you're working and networking and you're super busy and working all the maintenance windows and just trying to keep the lights on, you know, if you have a family as well, and like you know responsibilities, like if the the older you get, the more responsibility you have, the harder it is to find those cycles to teach yourself things you know in the, in the off hours. Um, even though it's going to be critical to to success, and I mean, I've seen the writing on the walls I'm learning coding, not because I love coding, but because I know I'll be irrelevant in the space if I don't.

Speaker 1: 45:16

Ai is here and I'm, you know, trying to get this LLM you know book for dummies basically started because I know that that's the next right. Like automation was yesterday kind of you know and and and and. Ai is the. I mean you got people vibe coding. For Christ's sake. Like you know they're coding. I don't even know what they're doing, you know because of AI. So I don't know. There's always this. It's just fascinating to me this.

Speaker 1: 45:47

I don't know as an industry and maybe it's because I work at a networking vendor and because I truly love networking I don't know how we can get to a better place where we have good network engineers who also have the software skills they need, when our colleges I'm not trying to get into a soapbox, but it seems to be that our colleges are spitting out comp sci graduates who aren't interested in networking for the most part and then networking people who aren't necessarily interested in coding. And maybe this is old guy talk. Maybe the newer kids coming up they love both, like yourself, but it's just not what I've seen. So I'm very refreshed and hopeful and optimistic hearing your story, because to have both is great, because I've always seen dev and networking as silos and we, we can't. We can't move our industry forward and get into where it needs to go.

Speaker 1: 46:29

Like once cloud came along and it was like push button, everything. It kind of ruined it for the old school trad netop guys like that became an option. So like, all right, I guess. I guess we got to figure out automation because somebody figured out how to make it consumable and easy. Right, william, I see a nod in your head.

Speaker 2: 46:46

Oh yeah, I remember the first time I fought Terraform when it first came out Like this bot stuff is a fad. Nobody's going to put their stuff in like another person's data center. Get out of here. This Terraform thing is like a hipster, you know chai latte on the beach with sandals thing on the phone, you know. But then I realized, you know, after using it and seeing it in action and doing things with it, like okay, I see why this tool is created and the problem it solves. I'm a long term fan now. I love it. So yeah, you got to get you know. Sometimes it takes a second to get in. You have to get in that turn and understand what's happening and wrap your head around it before you can fully embrace it. So be curious out there, folks. That's the thing Be curious, get out there and test things out. Everything's free, trial or open source. There's so much stuff out there to just go out and free tier your time up with. So yeah, be curious.

Speaker 1: 47:36

And be willing to question your own biases and preconceived notions of reality. And I know that that sounds kind of like woo-woo and like way too psychological, but I resisted coding for probably decades because I had an experience when I was 19, created neural pathways in my brain that said I'm not smart enough to do this. Now I found a circuitous route back into tech through climbing ladders and getting shocked and blah, blah, blah and then CCNA and here we are. But if you're a network engineer, what's our message here? I mean, I think, if you're a traditional what Scott Robama called tradnet ops person and you don't want to automate, and you can, and that's not for us. And I think Mooney are a perfect example of someone who really has the right mindset, the right combination of skills that are going to succeed in this software driven world. Right, you, it's going to be very difficult, I think, to compete as a network only skilled person as time progresses, because that's just not where the industry is and definitely not you know where it's headed.

Speaker 1: 48:34

Where do you see the future of network engineering? I mean, I know that it's an unfair question to ask you, but somebody who's coming up, I mean there's. So there's going to be people. We have a lot of people who listen, who are either trying to get in or to help desk or they want to be in networking, and they're. They come along this, this ride with us because they want to do this job. What would you tell somebody coming up um that that wants to be a network engineer? You know how should they do it, what skills do they need? What advice, yeah, for newcomers that want to get so.

Speaker 3: 49:01

So for someone like, let's say, about to graduate or just trying to switch careers, I was like, well, what do I need to do? Like, I think it's clear. I think one, you should be open to coding and, like you mentioned, there's a lot of biases, like when you hear coding C++, no, or is it all HTML CSS, like in my case at first, I think, like, just embrace it. Yes, there's vibe coding, but still you should understand how to code, because I think the value is turning less from oh, can I code? Or less of can I write some commands.

Speaker 3: 49:35

I think now the value is do I understand how the system works? Like, especially like, if you, because with AI, there's a demand for large infrastructures, so there's a demand for large data centers. So, like, even the government, they're investing in data centers. So with all of that, there's going to be jobs open for, like, network engineers and the demand will be like okay, I need people that can understand this large, complex networks. You won't need to type in NBGB command anymore. You might not need to even write the code. Like, you might write the code, but oh you hit me right in the heart Hold on hold on.

Speaker 1: 50:16

I just need a minute. I need a minute. Oh my God, you just attacked my entire.

Speaker 2: 50:21

Was your back?

Speaker 1: 50:21

okay too when you jerked sideways like that, but in the chest, when he said that, but that's where we are, but yeah, it's all right. I just I had a visceral reaction.

Speaker 3: 50:32

I'm gonna mute myself and let you keep talking and you might even need to for the food that I could, because I'm obviously like right now I still code. Now it's like they're teaching folks to code from like high school. Like you see, I'm seeing like 15 year old kids that can't do more coding than I can. So coding is now turning to like oh, can I speak Like the next generation of? That's why, like almost everybody coming out from college, at least they are fluent in Python and that's like the list. So I think where you now make yourself valuable is can you understand systems? Can you understand complex system, and that's for me that's valuable, since I understand a bit of them. No, I'm still learning, though, like the general network technologies, as now when I read, like in my blog, I'm not focused on the commands, I'm trying to understand okay, what was the concept? What are you trying to do here? So when you understand these like complex protocols or technologies, understand how they work, you're able to now replicate that knowledge to solve a problem. Like in the office the other day they were explaining like a topology. I'm like that's how OSPF works, like it's not OSPF. But I swear like everything they explained was like a topology. I'm like that's how ospf works like it's not ospf, but I swear like everything they explained was like ospf. So I was able to do that mental mapping because of I understood, like some core network engineering, some people there didn't understand, didn't even know what ospf like is on the table, so they had to understand it as a fresh topic. But since I already had like that knowledge of OSPF, I was just drawing patterns to understand what they were talking about.

Speaker 3: 52:08

Openly learning new technologies, learning how the technologies work, and not necessarily or how to implement it. Anybody, you can learn how to implement some stuff later on, but what will make you valuable? Because, like I mentioned, the tools that most people are using like, they don't even use it at google. So now the question is in your interviews they also ask you those questions because, but what they are looking for is okay, can you adapt?

Speaker 3: 52:31

Okay, you say that what you know is c++. Can you do you know that stuff enough? Not just, oh, I can write c++, but how do you think, how are you understanding this? If I give you a problem, how are you going to solve it? So I think now, that's why I always believe that, yes, as I believe AI can never 100% replace humans, because that place of understanding, solving problems, ai is still. In the grand scheme of things, it's still garbage in, garbage out. So you need someone to have enough context to even use AI. You need someone in the driving seat to do that kind of talent they're looking for now, someone that can understand systems problems. So think outside the box. I know that's very cheesy, but yeah, I think outside the box.

Speaker 1: 53:16

I think that's spot on. Yeah, if you can understand complex systems, how they work, the business problem that those complex systems are solving, and then be able to apply that problem solving methodology system wide in different contexts, I mean, you're gold in the market.

Speaker 3: 53:33

Yeah, and that's why you still need to understand how things were done before. I mean, that's why I'm even learning still, like studying for CTNP, even though I don't need it, because I just want to see how, oh how were they solving problems back then. So when they took us the older engineers in the office, I noticed that a lot of times they are like they make references to how they were doing things 10 years ago, but I don't have that reference. So they are able to like say that, okay, this won't work because that's how it was done before and this would work this. So that fundamental knowledge is still very needed. So, like I don't bash against certifications, although I know like, okay, the paper might not mean as much, but the knowledge you're getting from there is still useful.

Speaker 3: 54:15

Just always learn and when you're learning, just be thinking on the grand scale. One of my managers she was like anytime you're doing anything, always think skill. How can I do this for 100 000 network switches? That's how you should always be thinking. So because if I bring up a solution, that because I think we had a problem when I was bringing up solutions for one device or two device. The thing was like that's not scalable, that's not scalable, so that's how one should be thinking.

Speaker 1: 54:43

I'll scale it. I just need more time. Man, I can do one at a time. I just give me a year, I'll be fine. Nuna, this has been so insightful, so wonderful. You're such a great energy. I've learned so much from talking to you and I'd love to have you on again sometime, because I feel like sometimes I just meet people, I feel like I could talk to them forever. You know, we're at the hour. I got to let William get to bed. The poor guy, look at him. He's going to fall over. Thank you both for being here. Muna, where can people find you if they want to learn more about what you're up to?

Speaker 3: 55:16

Okay, so my LinkedIn, I can share it with you. I I can share it with you.

Speaker 2: 55:21

I'll leave it in the show notes.

Speaker 3: 55:26

Yeah, so my LinkedIn is there. My blog that's like my personal notes. So I still have some notes that I've not because I still have to refine it, clean the English before posting it. But I try as much as possible to drop my like my personal notes yeah, so it's networksbymunacom Network, una and a.

Speaker 1: 55:48

Yeah, and I checked it out and I really enjoyed it. And when you figure out how evp nbx land works, you can write a blog about it and teach me, because I'm still trying to. I'm still trying to figure it out. William, do you have any parting thoughts? My friend people obviously know where to find you cloud gambit. Uh, you know william is everywhere, but you have any parting thoughts? My friend People obviously know where to find you Cloud Gambit. You know William is everywhere, but you have any parting thoughts?

Speaker 2: 56:05

No, just stay curious. And I thought this was a really interesting. Your background and your story is just different. I like it. It was really refreshing, and it's refreshing also to see your excitement and the positive experiences that you've had. I love to hear stuff like that it was great.

Speaker 1: 56:23

Thank you, we'll be watching. I can't wait to see what you do next. I can't wait till you create a startup and become bigger than your current employer. It's going to be amazing. You're in the right place for that kind of.

Speaker 2: 56:31

Thing.

Speaker 1: 56:31

Yeah, as always, listeners. Thank you so much for joining us for this episode. You can find all things Art of NetEng at our Linktree. It's Linktree forward slash Art of NetEng. I always like to mention that we have a Discord server in that Linktree called it's All About the Journey. We have thousands of folks in there studying for all kinds of different technologies certifications, lifting each other up when they fail a certification and celebrating each other when they win. So if you don't have a community, you can check it out Again.

Speaker 1: 57:04

Linktree forward slash Art of NetEng. Thanks so much for listening and we'll catch you next time on the Art of Network Engineering podcast. Hey folks, if you like what you heard today, please subscribe to our podcast and your favorite podcatcher. You can find us on socials at Art of NetEng, and you can visit linktree forward at Art of NetEng. And you can visit linktreecom forward slash Art of NetEng for links to all of our content, including the A1 merch store and our virtual community on Discord called it's All About the Journey. You can see our pretty faces on our YouTube channel named the Art of Network Engineering. That's youtubecom forward slash Art of NetEng. Thanks for listening.