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This is the Art of Network Engineering podcast.

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In this podcast, we'll explore tools, technologies, and talented people. We aim to bring you information that will expand your skill sets and toolbox and share the stories of fellow network educators.

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Welcome to the art of network engineering.  I am AJ Murray at no blinky blinky. And tonight I am joined by Andy. Andy, how are you? I miss you. This is first time I've seen you really since  since Asheville. This is so good to see. I know it's good to see you too. I'm a little sad. I kind of miss the crew.  had a really good time today. I unpacked all the stuff that I had packed away for the Asheville trip  or live podcast weekend thing.

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And it just brought me back to  the times we had.  I'm good. I miss you guys. We had a really nice... And I got to hear a little bit of the sneak peek today. Dan edited the first episode and it  brought me right back. It was just such a nice time being with everybody. Such a different dynamic when we're all sitting around the same table. There's no delay. There's no weird internet bullshit. It's just we can talk and...

01:25
We can see visual cues like, it looks like Dan's about to talk because he's leaning into his mic. So I'm not going to say anything. Or in Andy's case, I'm going to cut over Dan. I'm going to interrupt him. I love that rivalry you all have. It really flourished in Asheville. Really proud of you all.

01:46
You jumped right in, bird. You were making fun of me in like You make it so easy, Andy. What am I supposed to do? Just let everything float out there and not take advantage of at least one opportunity.  Lex, it's part of my charm. I just put those layups out there for everybody and let you guys slam them down. really appreciate your sacrifice, Andy.  Thank you. I do what I can. you.  You can thank me for my service.  my gosh. That's too funny. Lexi at Track It Pacer.

02:16
How are you? I thinking about aliens, AJ.  That was a really great conversation before we started recording. hope we get back into it a little later in the show. Yeah, Andy brought up aliens. Yeah, we just started talking about it.  Are we alone? Are we not? What's the deal? Yeah, yeah. That's it. That's all I've got.  Sorry.

02:43
Well, maybe you'll get some uh insider information on the whole alien sitch that you could not share with us like everything else about your job. Well, you know what? We'll see.  How about you, AJ? How are you doing? Thinking about aliens? I'm doing well.  I love aliens. I'm a firm believer we are not alone in this world.  So call me crazy. Don't call me crazy. uh I think the odds are that there's definitely stuff out there. And it's fun to think about. It's fun to talk about.  is. Sure is.

03:12
Had good week so far? Speaking of aliens, actually  my son is sick  and  he's been acting like a little alien so that's been real fun to have.  Aw. uh Hanging around the house. doesn't feel good. uh Wicked fever today, he's been home, he's like definitely not acting himself for like a good portion of the day but uh I was still able to get some work done. Took care of him, checked in on him. But by tonight man,  he was...

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bouncing off the walls. Like all that energy he didn't use this morning was like,  like a rocket dude.  Absolutely crazy. Well, I am excited to introduce our guests this evening. I've had the pleasure of working with her on that working, but  being alongside her as a tech field day delegate on networking field day 21, a couple of years ago, I am excited to  welcome Corey younger to the show. Corey, thank you so much for joining us.

04:09
Yeah. Thanks. Thanks for having me guys. I am. I'm very excited. Of course. I've been following you for years. Of course. Like I just said, we got to, you know, hang out a little bit together. I think there was like a crossover, right? Like you were there for the first half of the week. I was coming in for the second half of the week and we sat next to each other at dinner that night and whoa, the shenanigans. That was my first field day experience. What a fun time that was.

04:34
Oh, I'm so sorry that you got indoctrinated by me. That is wildly unfortunate for you. No, no, it a good time. I don't think I realized that was your first. Was that your first Tech Field That was my first Tech Field Day event. Yeah. Well, yeah, they're always a good time. I miss them. Yeah. Yeah. Hopefully we get to do them in person again soon. Yeah. Well, now I, you know, I'll spill the beans. Now I work at Cisco. So.

05:03
Now I can't be a tech field day delegate and I just have to go cry watching field day events by myself from my own vendor scum world. Yep, that's true. That's true. I forgot. I forgot. Now that you're on the mothership, you cannot participate as a delegate anymore. That's one of the drawbacks of landing a job at Cisco and other OEMs. You can't play the games anymore. You can't have fun. Yeah, not part of the cool crowd anymore. So how long...

05:33
I think you're cool.  So how long have you been at Cisco? I've been at Cisco since August of 2020.  as of right now, is, I'm not going to do the math. It's been a long day, but  not quite two years. oh Yeah, not quite two years.  And I'm loving every minute of it.  I think I was talking about earlier, I may have screwed myself over a little bit by landing a job at a company that I love so much so early on.

06:03
Because I think Cisco would be a really hard place to leave that, you know, the people of the company everything they're great And that that's awesome. That's great to hear. I've heard a lot of similar comments from other people I know that work at Cisco So it's it's great to just continue to hear like how great it actually is mean, I I have to say that like from my own personal experience I'm a little bit jaded when it comes to like those best places to work because I've worked at places that won those awards and it's a bunch of

06:32
Bullshit in my  like the  places that I worked at that won those awards like  it must be like paying somebody to like give you the award or something like that they make all the employees do a survey and it's based off the survey results and I can tell you one year at what this particular company I worked at we did the survey and the CEO came to talk to the IT department because the IT department  like every single person in the IT department gave the company the lowest scores on the survey

07:00
And they're like, why is that? We got to figure this out because we almost didn't get the award this year because you guys.  you know, if the IT department wasn't blamed for the entire company's problems, maybe they they would have gotten some higher scores. Right.  But I digress. I know Cisco is a great place to work and it's really awesome that you are there. So great to hear. um Let's  let's talk about how you got into tech. I know that you've been doing

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you know, the blogging thing for a little while. So you've, you've definitely been around it for a little bit. So how, what got you started? Yeah. um The TLDR too long, didn't read version is that my mom conned me into it. So I actually, I started college  as a pre-med major. thought I wanted to go to med school. um My mom and my dad both worked in the work and worked in the technology industry. My dad on the sales side, my mom on  the engineering and systems engineering side.

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And, em you know, I went my sophomore year and saw a cadaver lab and was like, Ooh, maybe I do not want to do this.  His organs kind of freaked me out.  I also don't think that I would have ever gotten into med school,  but it  are the origin story for both my brother and I, my brother also works in the technology industry. em

08:25
It is the same. My mom brought us to Cisco live.  So  my sophomore year, my mom brought me to Cisco live and HPE discover and VM world.  And, you know, um in between OEM parties and partner parties in Vegas, ah there is, you know, a little bit of education there. And I actually changed my major  from the floor at Cisco live. em I had applied. I kind of already knew that I wanted

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wanted to go into IT already. um so I had actually applied to a different school in order to do so  and ended up changing, you know, selecting that major from Cisco Live. So that was the beginning of it. um And then as you said, we were Tech Field Day delegates together. So believe it was 2018. you uh know,  got a big family hug from the Tech Field Day crew and

09:24
They really  like I owe my career to them because I got to learn so much so fast from so many great people like yourself. And  that was the beginning of it. And then, you know, finishing college and all the important things that you tell your kids to do. Yeah.  So that was, that was a bit of the beginning. I don't know if you want me to go through the full, you know,

09:49
where I went after college and  how I ended up at Cisco, but that's the origin.  What did you major in  in college?  I majored in business, but got my minor in information systems and cybersecurity.  The program I was at is actually a Department of Homeland Security, em like a NSA DHS School of Excellence for cybersecurity. So,  very lucky to have that in St. Louis.

10:19
I actually, the school that I graduated from was the third school that I attended.  I went, started at the University of Missouri or Mizzou, was there for my freshman and sophomore year and then transferred to St. Louis University. em I had a professor confuse Ram and Ram at that university.  So then I transferred to University of Missouri in St. Louis, which is a smaller sister school of Mizzou's.

10:49
So yeah, it's very lucky. What was the first job out of college? First tech job. So the first job out of college was Cisco, but I actually took my first full-time job while I was still working. Oh, OK. All right. Yeah. So like I said, I got involved in the tech field day community. And amongst that journey, I ended up

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interning a little bit for the guys over at Tech Field Day and I got to go to RSA with them. um In that, this is,  know, because the other part of the  origin story of like my specific uh nerd bubble of technology.  So in that there is a hallway conversation with someone in the aerospace industry and they told me, hey, computers are just really big planes.

11:41
And then I started looking into cybersecurity tax in the aerospace industry and like the fact that you could take over the navigation system of an airplane from a computer and that it had happened before. yeah,  so  before I actually graduated college,  I had this really cool opportunity at an OT uh software startup is industrial automation software.

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And I took that job working in the manufacturing industry for a year, basically just to learn.  And we were a startup, so best case scenario,  I was thinking, hey, maybe we get bought out and I become a gazillionaire.  That did not happen, but I did get to some really cool stuff.  That sounds really cool, I gotta say. Can we  go back to the conferences for a second? So your mom...

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took you to a bunch of conferences. mean, was this a master plan of hers? Were you unhappy in pre-med-ish school? Why would she take you guys to a bunch of tech conferences all at once? This was 110 % her master plan. Because she had done it a year or two prior with my older brother, who also wanted to go to med school. I don't think either of us ever actually wanted to be doctors. We're just very competitive with each other.

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wanted to have impressive careers.  So  my brother was pre-med, so then I was pre-med and I'm a few years behind him.  And so  we actually began our transition to technology, you know, only one year apart from each other. Cause his was right as he was graduating college and mine was, you know, that sophomore,  sophomore, junior year. m I don't know what my sophomore and junior year were because it took me so long to graduate, but.

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in my second and third year there. So I wasn't, you  know, I was considering technology at the time.  And  like I said, I went  into a cadaver lab and realized that I couldn't do it. also, you know,  I wasn't wildly unhappy  studying biology and genetics and chemistry. I love the way that all works. But I just don't think it would have been a career that I was.

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successful at. I think I would have loved it, but I don't think I would have made it.

14:07
We'll be right back. This episode of the Art of Network Engineering is sponsored by METER.  METER delivers network infrastructure for the enterprise because every organization deserves seamless connectivity.  Whether you have a large team of network engineers or an IT team of one,  METER makes it simple to get online and stay online.  METER provides a full stack integrated platform that combines hardware, software, deployment and support.

14:34
So enterprises can ensure their networks have the performance, security, and reliability they need  without the inefficiencies of juggling multiple vendors.  It's enterprise networking re-imagined,  giving IT teams the ability to spend less time managing complexity  and more time driving business strategy.  Go to meter.com forward slash uh A1 to book a demo now.  That's M-E-T-E-R dot com forward slash A-O-N-E.  Now back to the show.

15:04
think your intro sounds so cool and so much fun. Like just go to a bunch of conferences. Like I have yet to be at a tech conference, right? And  you hit them all. Like, I want to do this. That's pretty smart. Yeah. I'm actually going to Cisco live this year. Um, well, guess pending pending my mom going, oh, she's already booked the hotel and Cisco is not sending me to Cisco live, but

15:30
she's going for work and so the hotel will be paid for so I will fly out and you know buy a guest badge just like she did for me when I was younger and  be able like the stuff you learn just from the show floor um is awesome like  and education is so far behind like I said I had a professor confused Ram and Rob so definitely learned a lot more from the community and the industry than I did. Hope that's not my first few years. Typical. No.

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Yikes. The traffic network asks, they won't even let you in for free when you work for Cisco. No. uh I learned this very recently that Cisco actually has to, I don't know if I'm allowed to share that, but  yeah, Cisco has to pay for Cisco employees to go to Cisco live.

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So it's still a  privilege to get to attend even as a Cisconian. Cisconian.  Yeah. Love it.  I think it's because the third party actually runs the conferences. Cisco pays them or whatever. I'm not sure. OK. What was it like having a mom working in tech? Were there maintenance windows?  I  don't know if my kids who were still very young get the impression from me that like...

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I don't know how I'm portraying my tech career to my little children, especially when I was working a lot of maintenance windows and stressed out with outages and getting woken up at two in the morning. How was that for you? My earliest memory of my mom working in technology is me sitting under a desk while she was working. I have no idea what she was actually doing or who she was working for at the time, but I...

17:18
I just had this vivid memory of being with her while she was working. then, you  know, once I was kind of old enough to understand what she did, she was working for  bars at the time she was working for, she worked for CBW for a very long time. um She also did consulting on the education side. She actually taught the program that I'm in now. Yeah.  And then now she's working at worldwide, but yeah, my very first memory is her.

17:48
being with her, you know, a  on a  after hours project  while she was trying, I presume she was trying to troubleshoot some dumpster fire.  like you were born to be in tech. You have a powerful, powerful resource  with you at all times for that. Yeah. So when I entered the industry, or  I guess when I started going to conferences, I didn't realize how much I already knew  just from

18:18
You know, my mom and my dad having conversations over EMOS pizza, you know, on the commercial breaks of Survivor. So that was like, we're definitely the nerdiest family. Like our thanksgivings would probably suck to anyone from the outside. I think it's really cool. But in fact, I'm working on it on a data center team right now. My mom is a data center guru, as I would describe her.

18:47
And I'd actually called her up to ask about the Nexus dashboard API  just a week or so ago. It was funny because I called my mom instead of reaching out to someone at Potato, potato.  Yeah.  That's awesome. oh So you worked at a startup,  and then you graduated college.

19:16
And now you're at Cisco. And now I'm at Cisco. actually, so  I left the startup  for cultural differences.  I actually quit in April and did not start working at Cisco until August. So I was, I lived the life. I, you know, was a part-time contractor actually for  our  parent company um or I guess partner company  from the startup.

19:46
which was very funny  to leave the startup and then work for our partner as a contractor. I also  did a little bit of bartending, learned that I am  not a good bartender because I like to talk to people too much. Yeah, I was a babysitter. It was a great summer. I live by the beach, so I was  living the life for a few months. Nothing wrong with that. That sounds great.  So then Cisco came around. How did that happen?

20:17
Oh,  by a  stroke of a miracle. Yeah,  I  there was some  some divine intervention, maybe alien intervention. I have no idea what it was. so like I said, my mom taught for the program that I'm in, which is uh it's the CSAT program. It's a pretty competitive  program to get into.

20:42
Like I know this year, we had over 40,000 applicants  globally and yeah. So wait a minute. What was the acronym you just threw out there? What is this? It's the Cisco Sales Associate Program, I believe is what the acronym stands  for.  And 40,000 people applied?  Yeah, 40,000 people applied this last year.  And I believe the international  group of oh

21:09
of ASC's associate systems engineers and associate sales reps was just around 190. So I... Holy cow. Wait, they took 190 out of the 40,000 applicants? Yeah. didn't know that figure until I think day two they gave us that number and we're just like, you know, if you're having imposter syndrome, it's okay. But just so you know, like you're meant to be here for a reason. Yeah.

21:38
like goosebumps right now, even talking about it. don't, I don't know how, how I got in.  had actually, so the program because of COVID and everything, you  know, the way the program works is Cisco has, em they have a really great sales intern summer internship. So those folks typically  interview first.  And then if there are more seats left or maybe they always have seats to external, I don't know what the ins and outs are, but then

22:08
uh external applicants apply an interview and ah there was some uncertainty on whether or not the program was going to happen this year.  I guess, you know, interns had interns and early applicants had applied, gotten offers, and then there was a freeze and they're like, Hey, we don't know if the program's going to happen. And then,  and then the early spring came around and they got their offers. So

22:38
And then at that point, they thought that was all  the seats for the CSAT program.  So  I had actually reached out. I had been applying for regular SEU roles at Cisco because I knew I wanted to leave the startup at that time. And  in talking to some of the hiring managers, they knew I was early in my career and I had asked about the CSAT program and if it was still going on, if they knew anything about it. And as far as I knew,

23:08
offers had been extended and applications were no longer open. So I reached out to the recruiting coordinator and she was like, yeah, you you missed the deadline. already extended our offers. And, know, I gone on LinkedIn and I saw everybody posting their acceptance and I was so, I was heartbroken. But, you know, about a week later, she contacted me back. was like, Hey,

23:37
There may be something I'm not positive yet, but there may be something  and the Meraki team,  the way CSAP works, different sections in Cisco, they can sponsor a CSAP-er. So the Meraki team was, was looking to sponsor a CSAP seat. So it was just  one  more spot. And I interviewed for that. I got through, um there's a software skills, uh like a programming skills assessment. I got through that  and.

24:06
Then the personal interview after that and got the sorry, you are no longer in the pool email. Uh, like the thanks, but no thanks email. And I was like, well crap. I didn't expect to get in anyway. Like I said, it's, know, it's a pretty hard program to get into. Um, and then I realized it was May 6th. I realized that I had missed a call from an unknown number and not listening to the voicemail. listened to the voicemail and it was the, the

24:36
HR person or recruiting coordinator saying, Hey, you know, a little bit more headcount has opened up. you interested in, starting the interview process again? And so I missed that. I missed that voicemail for a week and I called them back on, on the Monday and I was like,  is there any way that this has not been filled already? Yeah. And so from that pool, I think there are probably two more people hired. um After that, you know, that may

25:06
timeframe. And so from the beginning of May, the rest of my interviews happened, ah you know, through the month of May, and then I got my offer in the beginning of June and then started in August. Wow. So you weren't kidding when you said it was like, oh barely got in there. That's wow. That's awesome, though. That have felt really wild to go through with like an emotional roller coaster, I guess.

25:33
Yeah, it definitely was an emotional rollercoaster. I cried when I when I got my job offer. And there's a picture of me sitting on the couch. was I was eating fettuccine Alfredo.  And  there's a picture of me with a Tupperware container holding my phone and crying ah because I had to open the email. Yeah.  Someone in the chat asked how many interviews happened for that program.  There were um

26:01
the it was the initial interview and then you submit a 30 second about me and then a two minute em you know kind of why Cisco  short video and then after that you em if you're selected to go through with the process then you have a software assessment to complete and then a personal interview like I said after that was when I got the thanks but no thanks email and then I had

26:31
Two more, I believe two more personal interviews. And then there's a assessment center, which is typically it's not in person. It's an entire day of interviews. You give a technical presentation. ah You do a white boarding session and then you have two um just personal interviews,  but it's not, I think getting into the program is less about your technical acumen and more, you know, just getting the cohort to work together.

27:01
Cause we're like, have like 50 best friends now. Typically everybody lives together. You know, it's like a bunch of people up in Raleigh and they all live in the same apartment building and our roommates and like college 2.0. so are you saying like soft skills were probably very important for that process or, know? Yeah, I think so. Um, because

27:28
You know,  everybody, so in order to be eligible for the program, you have to be within two years of graduating college.  And  so it's not like people have years and years of field experience. There was actually, there's a, um, a guy in our cohort who worked in Cisco tax. So he is like a genius. He is our go-to guy for everything technical.  But, you know, there are people in our cohort who were,  um,

27:58
We're kind of brand, not random, but we're different majors ah who are on the technical side of the program. is  one, I think it was like an international politics  and uh national security major that now is going to be a systems engineer. And she is  one of the brightest humans I know. She's my work bestie,  but yeah. Wow.

28:26
I had no idea there was like a program like that at Cisco. That's really cool. Yeah, I believe VMware has one as well that may be pretty similar.

28:38
Wow. It's definitely for anyone like early in career wanting to get into technology. Why didn't we know about this? Yeah, it sounds like a fantastic opportunity. Why didn't we know about this?  I've never heard of this before. This is why we talk to people like Cory. Yeah. So we can learn things and spread the word. Yeah, definitely. Like if anybody is listening and has kids or  is listening and you know, is really

29:07
soon to be graduating or has kids who are soon to be graduating and want to talk about the program. You know, they can reach out Cyber Query on Twitter. Cyber K-O-R-I. I'm happy to talk about it. is the best thing. CSAP is the best thing that ever happened to me. We go through, you know, I've gotten my CCNA, my DevNet Associate, and then I'm gearing up to take my CCNP Enterprise Networking right now.

29:35
And you get all three of those certs in the program. And you also go through pretty intense bootcamp training in all the Cisco architectures, not only from a Cisco perspective, but also just, you know, like what the heck  is  like layer three switching. um And  what is a data center? Like there are people in my cohort who, you know,  knew what a server was, but not really.

30:04
And they turn they turn you up and now everybody's you know CCNA soon to be CCNP and Dang, yeah, yeah, man. I think it's important to highlight to the fact that you weren't You still applied knowing the percentage that got in oh right, like I'm

30:27
I'm not a math guy, but I divided 190 by 40,000 and I got some number that looks really small. I don't know if it's 0.4%, but like, oh my God. Don't let odds stop you from pursuing something. Yeah, I think it was like 0.04%, which I believe is the, I believe it's, or maybe 0.4%. I believe it's a... I think it's 0.4, my math. Thank you for...

30:57
Making me feel good about my math. But like, that's insane. If somebody were to tell you like, you have a point four percent chance of getting in here. I knew  I  knew it was hard, but I had no idea that it had that many applicants until I actually started. um Yeah, I had no idea. You almost don't want to know that, right? Like  that's almost that's discouraging in some ways, right? Even if you try not to let it happen. Like, I feel like that would definitely affect me if I were applying. Right. Yeah.  Yeah.

31:26
I'm thinking of my own career and like I went after things that maybe I shouldn't not even sure I was fully qualified for and kind of was surprised I got right  and  I think that's kind of what we've tried to say here is like yo, yeah, go after  those dream things right? it even if  you know.

31:45
Every indication that you can't do it. Just do it. I think that's like the theme of our that's what we've that's like our secret sauce that we found over like the last however long this podcast has existed. Right. What do they say? Fortune favors the bull. Yeah. Just just fucking do it. Like, yeah, it will happen. Like, you know. Yeah. Yeah. I was going to say, I think that was a common thread through a certain episode with a very,  very special lady.

32:14
who happens to be here right now. Even if you don't think that you're qualified for your job, like, that's a lie. You no idea. It the theme of every single position that I've ever gotten in tech, which is only two so far, but I anticipate it continuing on. I will just continue to not be qualified for anything and still get a job. Yeah. You will be an astronaut. Yeah, you know what?

32:40
Like, I might as well because like having the, yeah, sorry, this isn't a show about me, but it is a good theme. I love our theme. It's hilarious and wonderful. But there's parallels. mean, Cori, that's unbelievable that, you know, wow, it's just so impressive that you've done that. I had a mentor who is at Cisco. So I previously at the startup, worked

33:09
with the aerospace and defense industry a lot. so going into Cisco, I had a mission of, you I want to continue that work and I'm pretty passionate about the public sector and  the federal team over at Cisco. And so while I'm still, I don't know exactly what the future holds for me at Cisco, where I'll actually end up in the field. ah I had a mentor very early on tell me if you want to work for someone, if you want a job.

33:38
and you want to work for someone, be bold and tell them, hey, I want to work for you. Here's why I want to work for you. Even if they don't have a job open. ah And I did. I think that's kind of what I did ah going into CSAP was, hey, I missed, you I know you guys already sent out job offers to people, but  can we have a conversation anyway? And, you know, look what it led to. And then,  you know, my mentor giving me that advice,  I definitely.

34:08
You know, the world, like  everybody likes, likes talking to people and you just got to tell people your intent and be respectful and,  kind of ask for what you want. I think that. Say it again.  Ask for  what we want. We're all shy engineers, like nerds, but you know, we've got to beef up our chest sometimes  and ask, you know, say what we want.

34:35
If you're passionate about it,  there's a good chance that you just might get it.  So you worked in aerospace for a little while. Yeah.  Are you you talked about you're still passionate about that sector of technology. Do you still get involved? Like, how does that look for you  at the moment? Yeah, at the moment,  it just looks like a lot of research. So

35:03
Industrial networking and industrial control security is my, as I refer to it, my nerd bubble.  Because, you know, it's, it's, it's still networking and security and wireless. It's just, I perceive it as a little higher stakes. Like instead of  just risking,  you know,  just risking a data leak, you're risking, you know, an airplane going down or.

35:33
a humvee not working or a water system um going down or say the water purification system not working and then an entire town gets sick or an energy grid goes out. Like we saw what happened in Dallas a few years ago when they lost power. um It's like actual human lives at stake.  and there's, you know,  it's shiny and

35:56
and interesting because it's not just IP, there's some other protocols in play and we're trying to figure out how to make those meld  together. So  yeah, right now it's just a lot of research,  a lot of research until I get to the field. is actually doing a lot in that space  with the convergence of IT and OT. So I've been shadowing em the IoT teams a lot. I actually am going to get hands on with

36:24
our cyber vision tool, is a good network monitoring cybersecurity tool, but actually will read non-traditional protocols. they'll read, it'll, recognizes Siemens proprietary protocol and Rockwell's protocol. So I'm actually, I get to go down to Tampa to play around a little bit in a few months here. So I'm so jealous. That sounds awesome.

36:54
I didn't know. We need to nerd out so hard. know we got to talk. We've been yeah, we got to talk. Hey everyone, it's Lexi aka track appeaser or as my coworkers now know me that little gremlin that keeps crawling in and out of the server racks. I have a question for you. Have you ever heard of the USN UA? So let me throw three topics at you. Number one, network engineering number two.

37:22
no annoying sales pitches and number three beer. Does it get any better? Have you ever wished you could have someone to chat with in person about network design that isn't trying to sell something to you? If your answer is yes, then let me tell you, you need to check out the USNUA. The US Networking User Association  is a group of fellow network engineers that like to openly chat about all things networking. And the added bonus, there's no selling.

37:48
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38:16
Cool. There are some really, really interesting, like, I guess you'd call it, do you call them industrial protocols? Like I'm still learning. Like they, you know, the, the industrial side of things and aerospace have a lot of similarities and use a lot of the same  sort of stuff  in some areas. So it's, it's interesting learning about it because it's all this stuff that I never even knew existed. I didn't know there were so many proprietary protocols, to be honest.  Um, and that, you know, industrial stuff and automation has its own sort of bubble.

38:45
of like you said, right? Like it's all networking, but it's a different flavor for sure. Yeah.  And it's like super quick nerd tangent. um If your security tools can't do packet inspection because they don't understand the protocol, like that traffic is still going through your network and there can still be  like malicious packets attached to that traffic and it's still in your network. can still do harm and it's

39:15
it can seep through the cracks a lot easier. I get so jazzed up talking about this. I could talk about this for hours and hours. Yeah, we need to talk. But I think it's cool. That's super cool. It's like a whole other aspect I hadn't heard of, therefore I hadn't considered. I didn't know there was still proprietary protocols like that floating around, but it makes absolute sense. Yeah.

39:39
I never even heard of industrial security before. That's like such a cool. I don't know why it keeps coming to mind, but I remember there was something years back where there was somewhere overseas. They were trying to stop enriching plutonium or something. And I think they did it with like a virus, right? Like they got in and somehow killed their centrifuge and like, you know what I'm talking about? I forget what it was called. That specific like no, no one officially like to cut it for that. mean, that's basically.

40:06
Right. that's  basically industrial  security in a sense, Like somebody got through their attack surface and got through, right? Got in. Yeah. That's such a cool area to work in. didn't even... Area to work the thing. There are switches  in manufacturing machines.  The  IT and the OT space, it's funny because the teams oftentimes don't get along, but they are very, very similar.

40:36
are reliant on each other, especially with how like industrial manufacturing and just industrial modernization and automation, like the trends in the industry now, the industrial side of the house is becoming more reliant on IT. And so IT, you know, we got to figure it out. Can you, so you're using acronyms and... Sorry. No, it's great. Could you just explain like, you said IT and OT, what do those stand for?

41:06
Yeah, information technology, IT and then OT. I believe  it's operational technology, just uh OT is things  and IT is people. know, we think of um IoT as things, OT is also things, industrial IoT is really big things. OK.

41:34
I was familiar with IT, but just wanted to make sure it wasn't like a special application of like industrial technology or something like that. Okay, cool. Thank you for asking Lex. I thought she was just working overtime. sorry. Very cool. Yeah, it's a fascinating field.  I love hearing about it from you because I think you might be the first person to talk about it on the podcast. Am I right? I think you are. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's fascinating.

42:01
And this is probably why Lexi can't tell us anything about her job because there's an attack surface that you can't open up, right? Like there's proprietary stuff going on that you don't want. Yeah, I can't tell you how we're using our networks and that would definitely be like a security. Yeah. Yeah. All right. I'll stop asking. Sorry. Now that I know what Cory's talking about. love just saying no every time, I will not. You're like a little too much. We will not dive into all the.

42:31
all the attack vectors from an industrial perspective, just in case there's any bad guys listening. So  wait, now you got now you got my  my wheels moving. When you say like proprietary protocols,  what like what are you talking about? IP  is, you know, we all know Internet Protocol. Everybody's here, you know, everybody understands  IP and it's open. But.

43:00
the proprietary protocols, they're just nobody understands them. So in order to  do path inspection on say Siemens proprietary protocol, you either have to to reverse engineer that protocol or you have to  establish a partnership with them and allow them, Siemens will actually open up ah that protocol to you. But ah yeah, I think like in the early days  of  networking,  there used to be

43:27
more proprietary protocols, if I'm correct. And then we standardized for the good of all humans. A lot of stuff started out as... So we're attackers... Go ahead. Sorry, Lex. Are attackers using IP? Where my mind went when you said proprietary protocols and that packet inspection couldn't catch them, are rogue actors using weird proprietary protocols that...

43:55
something like a firewall can't pick up and that's how they're getting through? Or am I totally in bonker land? you're not in bonker land. It is...

44:06
So  if you

44:10
If a hacker were to go from an industrial machine that communicates with one of these protocols that traditional security tools don't understand, then yeah, we can't break down those packets. can't see into them. then we can't see malicious packets or malicious data there.

44:40
switches em in manufacturing machines.  And  these machines are not connected to the internet. Well, not the internet, but the network. Hopefully they're not connected to the World Wide Web.  But ah if a manufacturing engineer can send a part file from  one side of the facility or maybe even a different facility to the shop floor,

45:09
Like we all know in order for us to communicate across floors, like we have to go through multiple different lands to get there. um So same thing when you're communicating with an industrial machine. um If you're not, you know, plugged right in, you're going through multiple switches to get over to that machine. So it's same, same as, as networking and just, just a different language.

45:39
But so you want  you want machine you want networking equipment that can read proprietary and maybe like, you know, not really what we think of as traditional networking protocols that are open so that in case somebody it seems like there's a lot of correct me if I'm wrong, right? Like it seems like there's a lot of different protocols someone might be able to take advantage of just in case you have like hardware that doesn't read.

46:07
that protocol they could get in unnoticed. Yep. Basically, right? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And I'm definitely like, I'm not the expert on this. This is something, this has been an interest of mine. You are in this panel. It's been an interest of mine since 2018, but it's been a lot of self-learning. So I would say that brings us to another topic. Like the

46:35
The thing I learned in boating school was the thing I learned early in career was that I don't know anything at all. Like I think in college, you you think you're so smart and, and you have everything figured out because you're just a dumb young kid. And then you get into the real world and you're like, Oh, there's a lot more that I don't know than that. I do know.  So there's some,  I have some very smart mentors at Cisco who uh

47:05
who have been  doing  the industrial networking side and industrial security side of things for, you know, forever. Yeah,  who can probably answer questions a lot better than I can, but I'm happy to share what I boating school? it's a SpongeBob reference. Red Right Return? No, was a SpongeBob reference. I thought you were actually, well, you live by the water. I didn't know if you were actually getting your boat license. No, no, I.

47:32
I've been very lazy about getting my voting license because the it's actually free in Florida to get your voting license, but I just keep doing the  90 day temporary license every time I rent a boat because it's faster and easier.  just keep redoing it. Um,  they should probably get that done. I actually, when I first moved down here, um, I bought a sailboat before I knew how to sail and became a boater.  fact.

48:03
Boater.  I built,  yeah, I guess a sailor.  So because of COVID, I bought the boat, a little 15 foot sailboat, no motor um to teach, to learn how to sail.  And it came  without a boom, which is, know, the kind of the crossbar on a sailboat.  And because of COVID, the supply chain issues, I wasn't going to get this boom for like six months, but it was summer and prime sailing season.

48:30
So my friends and I built a boom out of PVC pipe and duct tape and hardware. And I sailed on a janky boat made of PVC pipe. That's awesome. That's awesome. Where there's a will, there's a way. This isn't the show for it, but how the hell do you go that way when the wind's blowing that way? I think it's got something to do with tacking, but I don't understand it. Yeah.

48:57
I don't understand it either. taught myself how go diagonal for a while,  right? You gotta lean into the wind.  And when you stop that means when you stop moving, that means that you're doing something wrong. But I am  not a good sailor. I one time broke my boat  and it was sun was setting and I had to jump out of my boat and swim my boat back and forth probably like a

49:26
third of a mile in the channel. I was, and I'm not a great swimmer, and it was getting dark out. so I'm pulling this boat by the rope attached to the front of it, trying to swim to shore with my rigged up boat made of PVC pipe with a broken rudder. And I am no one to be giving sailing advice, that's for sure. That sounds like the more fun version of sailing to me.

49:56
Breaking your boat and then driving back to shore every time. Awesome. So how are you liking Cisco then?

50:07
I love it. You  know, the program that I'm in is very intense. uh It's almost like, like a master's in,  in IT or like a master's in Cisco, I guess it's a  strong year of drinking the Kool-Aid and getting certs. um And  basically living,  living work 24 seven, because you know, you're in class and then you

50:36
you studied for your certs and outside of that,  there's this really amazing group of, of,  of people going through the same thing you do. So  you are, so we spend countless hours just  on WebEx talking to each other.  Um, but I love it. Like the people at Cisco, I don't think that I would be able to go through something so intense if it weren't for the good people.

51:03
that surround me, like not just the people in my cohort, but my mentors. And, you know, we get the opportunity to shadow account teams and there are a few teams who they are working on industrial networking projects. And because of my interest in it, they pulled me in and allowed me to not only shadow customer meetings, but, you know, be an active participant. And it is the coolest experience to just

51:33
learn hands-on. When, as a systems engineer, do you get to just take a trial run without any accounts of your own?  Never.  It's amazing. It sounds like a great support network for sure. That's awesome. It's the best way to learn with all that support. That's fantastic. Will you get to pick your area at the end or will they plug in where they need you? You think you'll be able to get into industrial cyber something or another?

52:02
Fingers crossed. I have no idea. I have learned so many ins and outs of corporate world bullshit, to be honest. Yes. Thank you. That's the real education. Yeah, and headcount gets allocated. I'm like, this is insane. Can someone just tell me when there's a job I can apply to?

52:31
Wait, so is management? Is there like a management training as well in here? like, that part of it? Not in the management training. This is just pain from... Okay. All right. Like we already learned, am... As somebody described to me today, actually, I refer to myself as a squeaky wheel because squeaky wheels get oil. But he said I should call myself a wind chime because it sounds a lot nicer.

52:59
I'm  still making a lot of noise, but at least it's typically pleasant.  But anyway, so I came into Cisco  and my, my master career plan, right, was that I was going to go do this OT thing.  You know, the industrial automation thing at the startup for a little while, learn that side of the house and then come back and learn traditional networking  and security and wireless and get

53:29
you know, get my bearings there and  in the traditional IT world. um And then early on I realized and then marry it down the road. Right. Like I thought the the industrial networking piece of my career would be able to come  five, 10 years later. And then I learned that there is the possibility to do it at Cisco. So  very early on and  at my time at Cisco, I reached out to  to some senior leaders and told them,  you know, like we said, I'm

53:57
I'm a wind chime, so  I made noise and told them, this is my intent. This is my area of interest and here's what I'm doing to learn and  let, you know, I hope there's a possibility that I can do this after the program. And right now, just kind of waiting to see if that happens. There's definitely, you know, as a  general SE, there's the ability to, we all have our passion points. um

54:26
So there's the ability to  still maintain,  you know, that  specialty a little bit while being a generalist. But uh yeah, who knows if I will get there right after the program or if I'll get there eventually. I will get there eventually. I just don't know when it'll be. Oh yeah. If you're a Windchime, you'll get there eventually for sure. Hopefully sooner rather than later, Yeah. That's awesome.

54:56
It's been a very cool journey.  I  know this is going to become a podcast and nobody's going to be able to see, I'm  beaming right now because I am just so grateful for what this past year has been.  I look back on my life two years ago and I'm like, Or  I guess three years ago and I'm like, how the heck is this my life right now? This is awesome. I feel you on that one for sure.

55:23
That's great. We do have YouTube versions of our podcast, so people will be able to see you. Enjoy the band.  Soak it up. That's awesome. Yeah. I see you've been knocking out the exams you mentioned. You got the CCNA and the DevNet, and now you're working on your encore. um I feel like every time I sign into LinkedIn, you're posting another win. ah Like you  most recently just did the DevNet Associate. What  has...

55:53
that experience been like for you? Like you said it's like a boot camp and they're just like throwing a bunch of stuff at you and then you take the exam. Like how do you  knock these out so quickly? Yeah.  So the boot camp  is more focused on architectures. We have a few  kind of structured lab.  When we were going through our CCNA, we had some structured labing sessions  to get hands on with things, but

56:22
the, um,  the certifications. their program requirements, like on the systems engineering track, we have to  get our CCNA, CCNP enterprise and DevNet associate during the program, like to graduate the program, you get those within the year.  here,  I said, I pretty much like sleep, eat, breathe.

56:52
my job right now. And I love it, right? Like it's absolutely amazing. But it's a lot of study sessions with the cohort. Like it's definitely easier when you have 20 other people doing it alongside you and you can hop on a WebEx and whiteboard with each other and run through. That Boson is a study tool that Cisco provides to us. You can, we can run through Boson exams and talk through.

57:20
why this answer is the right answer and why that one isn't the right answer.  But I had never  passed a certification on my first attempt.  it has not shared a Same. So CCNA, I got it on my second attempt. That one was pretty good. DevNet,  I actually sat for the exam six times  before I got it. For you. Six times. I kept taking it  every week.

57:50
until I passed it because like I said, it's a program requirement.  I was  my first attempt or two, absolutely bombed the exam. Like I thought there's no way that I passed the exam. This is absolutely terrible.  I'm never going to get through this. And then  bunkered down and  and started, you know, getting hands on  and went through a DevNet express course  and

58:17
you know, just like ramped up the studying and then somehow eventually passed it. I actually on my fifth attempt, I was on question 80 out of 107 and I was taking the exam online and got my exam revoked for for leaving view of the screen because I didn't have I couldn't find my glasses before the exam. So, you know, like your your check in time is approaching and I was like running throughout my house looking for my glasses. I couldn't find them.

58:47
And so I'm in the middle of this exam and I leaned forward into my camera to read or into my  into my computer to read the the the coding blurbs that are the answer choices. uh And I guess, you know, I got so close to the screen that they counted that as an exam violation and I got my exam revoked. It was.

59:14
so anxiety inducing. was probably the worst 24 hours of my life. I'm so sorry. That's such bullshit. but Cisco Cisco is amazing. Like I asked Pearson if I could review my review my video because I was like, how the heck like I didn't get up and move. You know, so I really did not think that I had a bone. I still have a bone to pick with them. I didn't think I had like actually violated any

59:42
any rules. So I was like, send send me the tapes. Let me see the receipts. me me validate at least that I did actually break a rule and they would not in their review process can take up to 30 days. So here I am. You know, it's my second cert at Cisco. I've been working at Cisco less than a year and I have to tell my manager like I got my exam revoked. It could be 30 days before I figure out like what the consequences are from this.

01:00:12
I don't get my score report released until their investigation is over. um You know, and of course, like when you go, when you sign, when you check all the boxes before you take your exam, there's  the terrifying warnings here. You know, you could be barred from exams for life. it's anything from,  you have to retake the exam to you're banned from Cisco for life and you get all your certs revoked. so.

01:00:39
I was just like a bundle of nerves for 24 hours.  then  someone from the developer advocate team and the Cisco Learning Communities team reached out and they were like, hey, we heard what happened. um We're going to see  if we can take a look at the video  and see what happened. um And so they did and Cisco issued a voucher and I was able to take the exam five days later and passed it. um

01:01:08
After I think that situation probably took like 10 years off my life. Oh my gosh Way to persevere I love I don't have a choice I love the test from home option, but I've been snapped at by a proctor too for pretty much the same thing because I was trying to take the exam on my work laptop because it you know work paid for it or whatever and I couldn't get logged in and it was like 15 minutes before my exams like set to start I'm like shit

01:01:38
So I grabbed my MacBook and  the resolution on that thing was ridiculously high. And I was able to get in. But this similar situation, right? I  have pretty good vision. I don't need glasses. But when the  questions came up, I had to lean in to see what the hell I'm looking at.  And the proctor's just like, back up. You're too close. Like, what? Yeah. It's like, no, no. can't see. I can't see your whole face. You do that again. I'm going to close the exam.  Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

01:02:08
Yeah, like, am I possibly? Is there like a tiny leprechaun sitting in front of my screen? You think I got like Post-it notes on the other side I'm looking at or something? Yeah. Cheaters ruin it for everyone. damn room. know what's behind my laptop. Exam dumps are why we can't have nice things.  Yeah, it's  stupid, honestly. Like that makes me so mad. It's all because of exam dumps. Yeah. I like to think that the proctor

01:02:36
had in their mind that there is a tiny leprechaun man chanting command line, or I guess not chanting command line, like chanting API lines to me. And that's what they thought was happening. It's like standing on your monitor. It's A. It's A. Yeah, like hopping around the keyboard. Oh my gosh. That's great. Yeah.

01:03:05
So  what's next? So  how much longer do you have left before you graduate the program?  The program  finishes in July. it's coming um right up. Coming right up.  And I think we have a deadline every week  until the end of June.  So yeah, that is intense.

01:03:34
You know, we're all interviewing for jobs, trying to figure out what the next next step is. We actually, so we have a,  you know, like a soft spot to land at Cisco. um Right now I'm on the global virtual engineering data center team. So um if I  do not find a field role by the end of the program, um I'll transition into that team,  which is interesting because data center is definitely my weak spot.

01:04:01
I think my manager may have done that on purpose to be like, you will learn data center. Yeah, that's where we are now. And then after the program, I think I want like a six month break from certs. Well, you're in such a role, you should just go right for CCIE. mean, come on. Oh my God. AJ. Stop it.

01:04:31
There is that thing there, right? Now the first, the EN Core exam is basically, the written exam for CCIE Enterprise. Just got to go to the lab. Yeah. Oh, just got to go That's all you got to do. Yeah, just go do the lab. It's fine. Go dedicate a year and a half of your life to studying and go Corey, just go sailing when this is over.

01:04:58
Don't listen to AJ go sailing. do think I'm going to attempt my DevNet professional um after this because  the CCNP EN, the second exam for that that I'm taking is EN auto and EN auto counts as one of the exams for your DevNet professional exam. So if I could knock out, you know, two certs and three exams.

01:05:25
Two professional level certs and three exam.  That's a great move.  I  was going to do that.  I was doing a lot of data center stuff and I was just like, you know what, I'm going to do DC Core, DC Auto, and then Dev Core and get the two. ah But that got derailed. I'm doing a little bit less data center now and a lot more enterprise. So I don't know. I might try it again at some point.

01:05:50
But then I also looked at the DevCore and that is  way deeper into programming than I currently have that skill set. Notice I said I'm going to attempt  DevNet Professional because also remember that it took me five attempts to pass the DevNet Associate exam. how much sweeter was that pass given everything you went through?

01:06:17
taking the exam and pass it the first time, do you think it would feel as good as it does right now? I mean, assert's assert. So yeah, probably. All right. All right. Not the answer you were expecting. No, no. It's poor AJ. done with it by the end. Like, there were weeks. You have been through hell and back. Yeah. I had realized somewhere in the middle of studying that I had not stepped foot outside my house for four days. Oh, shit.

01:06:47
Yeah, like I missed trash pickup day that week.  And I stepped outside on like a Thursday and I was like, Oh my god, this is the first day that I've seen  that I breathed fresh air for four days. uh That's intense.  So yeah, I  that was very intense. I did have a realignment of time management  after that week. Yeah. Yeah.  And I'm failing at learning that skill right now. But I'm trying.

01:07:17
Well, Corey, this has been an amazing conversation. uh I hate to do it, but I think we're close to wrapping here. But before I do, uh is there anything that we should have asked you about? I mean, we've talked about so much. Is there anything that we didn't talk about that you want to talk about? Oh, I want to talk about so many things that I don't think we have enough time.  We'll have to have you back.

01:07:43
No, I think this was this was an awesome chat. Thank you guys so much for having me. I'm honored to be to be amongst the guests now. The very good podcast and I'm excited, you know, to follow your guys's journey the rest of the way. And Lexi.

01:07:59
You owe  me a nerd chat. Oh, Oh, absolutely. At least one. Maybe that's just like a separate episode that you guys just do and we record that. AJ, stop trying to cap it. No, I'm kidding.  AJ, want  to be friends. Stop it. In all seriousness, industrial, if I knew enough to talk about it on a podcast much, like I would want to do an industrial like networking episode. That would be fantastic. can all learn together. Yeah.

01:08:28
plans.  Anyway, this is so much fun because we have our Patreons here chatting with us while we interview our guests. If you're interested in joining our Patreon program, you can go to patreon.com forward slash art of net eng, check out our different tier programs, sign up and all of the funds that you put towards your Patreon membership go to help us take care of the show and all sorts of cool stuff,  including giving back to the community with books and vouchers and other things.

01:08:57
Please consider it today and check it out. Corey, where can people find you, follow you, get more about you? Yeah. You can find me on Twitter at cyber Corey C Y B E R K O R I. uh That is where I do most of the things. I'm failing at blogging  at total packets.com.  But there is some great content there from my co-founder and mother. ah So

01:09:27
That is,  uh, that's available as well. But yeah, Twitter is always the best place to reach me.  And if you are going through certs, if you have, if you're early in career, you have someone early in career,  I am trying to  give back to the community as much as everybody,  as much as everybody gave to me. So I wouldn't have been able to start my career the way I have if it weren't for, if it weren't for the community and the people around me. So  please do not hesitate to reach out. um

01:09:56
I'm always happy to chat and help as much as I can. That's awesome.  Are you in  our Discord by any chance?  I am not, but I would like to be. Because I'm sure there's a whole bunch of people in that situation, right? Early in career, trying to land a job and all sorts of stuff. We'll get you a link to the Discord and you can join and chat with us there. Awesome, Corey. Thank you so much for joining us this week and we'll see you next time on another episode of the Art of Network Engineering podcast.

01:10:35
Hey y'all, this is Lexi.  If you vibe with what you heard us talking about today, we'd love for you to subscribe to our podcast in your favorite podcatcher.  Also, go ahead and hit that bell icon to make sure you're notified of all our future episodes right when they come out.  If you want to hear what we're talking about when we're not on the podcast, you can totally follow us on Twitter  and Instagram  at Art of NetEng.  That's Art  of N-E-T-E-N-G.

01:11:01
You can also find a bunch more info about us and the podcast at artofnetworkengineering.com.  Thanks for listening.