this is the art of network engineering podcast in this podcast we'll explore keys technologies and talented people we aim to bring new information to expand your skill sets and toolbox and share the stories of fellow network engineers welcome to the art of network engineering i am aj murray i'm back again but don't hold your breath because i'll probably be gone soon andy how are you doing hey what's up i'm good good to see you good to see you i will lie to you and tell you i'm good and i had an easy day everything's good my hot water heater busted today oh dude that sucks that was hours of hell i think it's hilarious though because it forces you to say the word water water and then hours later i'm coaching my son's baseball team and i get a call from the mound i'm pitching and the fire department's on their way to my house because the smoke alarm went off so i run like hell home to try to save my dog's life and see if my house is on fire and it was a false alarm so that oh my god that was my day but i'm happy to be here yeah so nothing really happened nothing really so you really have nothing to complain about just a bunch of stuff that could have went wrong right well besides the 40 gallons of water on my floor water yeah in my basement water water water i'm good leader thanks water good thing you didn't take an exam a water exam a water exam an exam a water exam exam someday we're gonna figure out what language that is it's philly man aaron how are you doing i'm swell thank you yeah yeah i rent so none of the above problems are oh yeah relevant to me every time something happens at my house like damn i miss renting i know i know it's almost like you want stuff that like like you force stuff but it's it's weird actually though cause like like our toilet broke once and you know what would have taken me i don't know not that long it's just a process you know yeah and so it's actually in some ways worse but yeah from the financial aspect of it yeah sure yeah whenever something goes wrong in my house the first thing i do is look at youtube videos and i try to decide is this something that i can do or should i call somebody yeah you do this calculation where you figure out like you're what you make at work per hour and then figure out or do i know someone that can do this for me uh that's a good one too good good to have friends in the in the service industry yeah absolutely i have a friend who's a master electrician and he's oh my ass man i tell you what well the the hvac dudes guys and gals out there are are nice to know too because that's of us i need an hvac friend that would be really great right now so yeah you're looking if you work with hvac and for some reason listen to a network engineering podcast and need a new friend yeah you can find me on twitter at no blinkyblinky there's an iot plug in there somewhere i'm very open to being your friend uh we have a guest this evening before we introduce the guest i have some wins to discuss we've got lots of winning going on in the winning channel in our discord if you're not yeah and yeah and andy and i are really freaking bad at that so thank you aj for stepping i heard you guys drop some wins we did episode that's gonna drop next week we did we tried our best in your absence sir but you could tell that we were flailing around like a like a bunch of school children without a uh somebody to monitor the playground nailed it no no you guys did great uh okay so um i went back as far as i could uh and we'll start with screen name lander past the ccna congratulations yes gotta love a good ccna pass incredible incredible goose passed their encore exam incredible the devil okay tanaya started a new job at spectrum boom you gotta love it yes and and don't worry andy hasn't worked there so he can't talk smack on it i have i have though and guess what that's right great place to work great place to work excellent uh gray dollas gray dollas as they go by in the discord started a new job working as a microsoft data center technician wow they will be working in a data center that supports bing xbox live azure and office 365 among other services that's cool stuff man sounds like a pretty awesome job i'm very happy for them does anybody use bing though uh by default like if you if you accidentally open your internet explorer for whatever yeah nobody uses edge and when you accidentally open edge bing comes out right everybody yeah everybody's uh first double like when you get a new pc your or fresh windows install the first the first double click you do to go find drivers or something is is a bing pop-up so i wonder how many bing like searches are our drivers and updates firefox or something oh it's an opera they're looking for right oh god who the hell uses opera i don't know man throw away lycos uh netscape that's good yeah all right all right our friend robin c robin cannella uh recently accepted an offer as a cyber security engineer oh dang all right i like that sexy time that's a cool no that's that's a sexy title right there yeah probably has a sexy salary too yeah right security uh radiant blue took a new job as an i.t consultant okay like it consulted that's not easy that's a lot of on your own stuff there it takes takes uh takes some um forward thinking and some some self discipline yeah cso type stuff right yeah uh our favorite butcher turned network engineer chris he has passed his uh all right he's recently passed his cis midterm exam and lab congratulations chris oh yeah he's in school yeah good good congrats everybody thank you for joining everybody that's right good job uh and last but not least i think just today uh our friend martin uh he's from abroad he i believe was a couple months ago he he passed and uh got his ccnp security so he went and took another exam the securing networks with cisco firepower exam and passed that specialization boom that's uh that's an example yep that is one of the specialization exams in the ccnp security track all right and i think that's the second one we've recently announced yeah there was a there was another i vaguely remember that and it was i was equally as puzzled like what what is it you know what though like if you look at the ccmp security track like firepower makes sense that's very relevant sure but then they have like a whole exam dedicated to their like email security appliance and one i didn't know cisco had an email security appliances why is there an entire exam dedicated to that well hopefully i'm just asking i don't know i mean unlike i'm sure it's not knowing cisco but you know whatever congratulations everybody yes congratulations everyone if you have some exciting news please drop that in the hashtag winning channel and we will be sure to announce that here yeah we'll put you on put you up absolutely shout outs celebrate the wins it doesn't have to be passing an exam we love to share all sorts of wins got a new job got something exciting going on in your life having a baby getting married whatever that's right drop that drop it in there we'll shout you out here okay now it's time for the main event we really need to invest in that sound board what you didn't like that the cheeky sound effects going no it was good it was good i just feel like we you know maybe have the sound board been a while since i haven't hit some rudiments but i could i could get some stuff out for you i was gonna expect more from a drummer but i guess it was needs to set i'll snap so this evening we have uh kevin camacho joining us uh kevin works with andy and uh tonight kevin's gonna tell us what it's like to work with no i'm just kidding that's not why we brought him here so it just so this kind of dovetails in the conversation that you and uh aaron had last week you guys did a wonderful knock talk episode uh and uh andy had the great idea to bring on his co-worker kevin who also came from a knock yeah and now does some really cool automation stuff and we kind of want to hear how he got from a to z kevin thank you for joining us yeah thank you guys for having me going to be great from the block to the knock baby wait hold up were you ever on the block you were never on the block right now well he played football he was an officer he played offensive lineman so he blocked yeah okay so so from blocking to knocking oh we just came up with that episode all right so hold up go back to that real quick you played football hold on yeah are you big like because that's a big guy spot the the offensive whoa yeah but tell them what you're bench pressed no no so i'm only six one i played center but at the time i was uh 290. so i was heavy were you that big like was this in high school were you just like a big kid like you grew fast well yeah i did grow i i kind of maxed out at my height pretty fast here i think by my freshman year i didn't really grow much since then oh wow but um yeah so then i got i played in high school i wasn't as big i got a scholarship to play at wayne state college in nebraska um it was d2 football and so that's when i got bigger nice yeah so i this is this is interesting to me because i always like hearing like actual athletes that are into technology because back in the day um never the two shall meet it was like yeah you either a sports dude or you were me you know what i mean yeah i didn't have many teammates um i think towards the end of my college career i found you know like a freshman who was going into career into i.t and i was like oh man that's pretty cool you're going to love it you know but it wasn't many of my teammates that did that and you found i bet you found it too and you're like oh my god there is one and he was like dude why are you talking to me so much like like it's not that cool it's probably different now though if i had to guess like nowadays you know i don't know how long ago this was but i would imagine nowadays it's a lot more common just because there's a lot more people in the industry and the services out there for the college courses and stuff like that aren't just necessarily catered to cis or you know something along those lines so it's probably a little more common i would imagine yeah and you know we're growing up with technology so right you know it's not that hard to you know to get into so so you what did you do at you said it was western nebraska uh wayne state college is called wayne state okay yeah and and uh did you got a degree from there yeah okay i actually started um you know going into my freshman year i started at physical therapy uh oh wow i thought i wanted to do something with sports and then you know halfway through my first semester i remember talking to my friend and i was like man i don't like this and then i was sitting there i was like i love computers let's go find me at the com you know 90 degree and i had no i actually i actually had no idea like what that even looked like but i just made the switch you know yeah you're probably not alone there and also i think it's funny like i like that conversation especially you're like uh i don't think i want to be a physical therapist anymore this is boring he's like oh you think that's boring check out these coding classes dude yeah you're gonna love the hell out of twisting somebody's ankle trust me oh my god yeah speak for myself on that one i think but okay so you graduated there did uh was it a uh computer science degree uh it was computer information systems okay so cis right on yeah so you then parlayed that into your first job i would imagine right did you ever use like your uh like your sports sort of because i mean playing d2 ball is a pretty big deal man i'll be honest like do you ever do you ever put that on your resume or try to flex that in situations um i i have it as like a college activity okay so i and i also i put on there because my senior year as a team captain so i put that in there to try to you know oh yeah yeah it's probably a good conversation i started right when people see that they want to talk about that right surprisingly people didn't really ask too much about it okay but well if you're interviewing with i.t people like oh he did sports ball yeah they're like football following through the papers which what is that again is that the one with the bat or that yeah but i uh i didn't actually i didn't go from graduating straight into um into my job until my career actually i mean i find this interesting so like my my very first two weeks in college i had actually dropped out i did i went from because i'm originally from las vegas i went from las vegas to nebraska i'm in a small town of 5 000 people and i'm like what am i doing here like i wanted to go home from las vegas yeah and so i dropped out i one semester later i decided you know what i can't quit i'm going back and at the end at the end of my uh my bachelor's degree it actually turned out to be a good thing because because i quit i had another season of football eligibility so so i ended up taking that spring off uh i worked in a help desk for three months at a mining company it was like a contract you know work i wasn't a full-time employee so how did you pull that job off so you this was it help desk yeah so how did you pull that off um i was in you know i was home for the semester and i just was just finding a job or looking for a job you know and somebody called me back i applied for so many jobs i didn't even remember applying for that job yeah and so something there so somebody called me you're a freshman or when you're a senior is this when you quit school first no so this was uh at the end at the end at the end of my bachelor degree but not at the end of you know my football career yeah but you had a degree and you got to help this yeah right okay correct and i had my only my c cent because i had a lot of you know a lot of free time no job no school you can't got to see your csun no i got that like a month or two after graduating okay and then like a month later i got my uh i got that job it was only a three-month contract and then i went back to school i played my last football season and i started grad school and at the end of that semester i finally went back home and then sorry do you get networking class like i failed out of cis in like two weeks so i don't know what the curriculum is like are you introduced to networking there do you know when you get out like how that stuff works you know looking back a lot of stuff didn't make sense that when i first started the networking job it still doesn't mean yeah no it's it's it's tough or you know it was tough in the beginning but i took i remember taking networking one two and three and four i took a web design class took a server class that i remember that class because at the end of it we got to do like a hackathon that was kind of fun um i took a java class a c plus plus class cobalt if you guys ever heard of cobalt nope it's some coding still doing classes on it though yeah it was i had it though yeah i like it how long ago was this by the way uh yeah kill ball is pretty old i graduated with my undergrad in 2016. oh it's not that long ago right on yeah all right so you had some networking exposure right and yeah college gotcha so you go to help desk in in vegas right so then while you're doing that you still have another year of eligibility that you're going to play right so then you have back and when you're in school you're not working at all right this is true to do yeah that's what i figured so you play for another year you win a heisman then what happens and then i i actually i went home in december i was still doing you know my grad courses yeah it took me seven months to find a job and then i i actually got a job at the same same company that had worked before i worked there for four months that was actually a really cool experience because i got it so the company was called bear gold it's one of the biggest gold mining companies in the world and i got an opportunity to go spend six weeks at a mining at a mine in northern nevada and i got to go like two thousand feet underground oh cool i almost got overcall you at the gold digger yeah sorry it was open hi it was there it was a dad joke right there but that was really cool yeah i don't i don't know a single person other than you that's been in a gold mine that's that's like that's uh that's something in nevada you guys nevada's more of a silver state though right like the mother lode wasn't that all silver yeah i mean people think of it as a silver state yeah yeah all right see i got my history right we californians are known for our goal you know what i'm saying and was that helped us kev the when you get back okay yeah it was called service desk but you know essentially the same thing yeah yeah i mean like at a mining like what cut what kind of it don't take this wrong way i mean you don't work there anymore so that's cool but what kind of what kind of i.t infrastructure does a gold mine have i mean first there's two ends of the spectrum i imagine that like this could go either way like they either got way too much money they don't know what to do with it or they're just like sorry nope everything is for giant trucks only i don't want to be the stereotypical guy but like you watch that gold digging show on you know like discovery channel whatever yeah those are not the people that i think of like wielding computers to like exactly that's kind of where i'm going i'm very keen on computers how does one wield a computer i mean those guys are like they're fixing machines they're working with with heavy machinery i don't see them like checking their smartphone for an email from the boss you know like you knows it was pretty interesting at the time i didn't know much about networking i knew you know concepts from school but like rio enterprise networking hey i have no idea at the time and so um uh you know i don't know all i really knew was the ticketing system you know i help people with their computers some of the programs that they use you know made sure that their you know requests went through um i almost became an underground network technician though because i you know i told them i wanted to find a networking job and that was part of the reason that i went underground is to they were kind of giving me a tour um and it was going to be mainly switching and wi-fi you know because they as they dig new areas they have to add wi-fi to that area and so wi-fi explain this okay so this is this is rad and we're not trying to we're not trying to gold mine this whole situation but like this is interesting stuff as far as i'm concerned and again you know me i like to speak for everybody here but i think like as far as like the people that we've even had on the show clearly no one has worked in a gold mine before so enlighten us man because no we did not know that you needed to put wifi in every new section of the tunnel well i don't have the most experience i only spent six weeks there and i only went underground once um but you know i was you know trying to get that job in um yeah i mean they keep digging you know so one of the cool things that i saw is one of the guys upstairs working on a remote control uh digger so he he got to sit upstairs and you know control the drive machine yeah so wait so was the wi-fi then for stuff like that so that he could control that to be honest i don't you know i'm not really too sure i think i think that was part of it um but you know they don't lie were they where they checking facebook tweeting you know can you imagine it's a big old chunk of gold they're like check this out yeah right buddy one of the this might not be funny to anyone else but on there's a little note card you have to read before you go down and or a little quiz i think and it asks you about the two-way you know roads down there and then you go down there and you find out there's there's not it's not it's not a two-way road so when you're driving we had these little carts you know and i'm just picturing indiana jones by the way is this accurate or no the scene where the rock is i would say there's no rocks but it's that it's pretty tight you know yeah like the big boulder and i'm talking about um uh temple of doom where they're in the actual like mining cart and they're doing in the chase on the railroad tracks is there railroad tracks down there first of all can we get that out of the way no no yeah no no my life's been a lie at this point but it's it's intimidating because uh you know you have to follow the rules and you'll see like a big jammer or whatever they call the things that actually dig and it'll come face to face with you and if you know if you're an idiot down there driving like you can potentially get ran over right so right so it's it's it was pretty i was kind of scared a little bit you know luckily i had a you know good tour guide time but it's intimidating but there's guys down there running cables and putting in access points yes like how deep people like i have so many questions people that do this stuff or just like some minor guy that like helps out at home with this with his computer stuff but uh i do know that it's in the middle of nowhere and they have a hard time finding you know i.t talent uh sure sure and i don't know you know some of those guys i have i.t backgrounds and whatnot and um but i think they've even pulled people who were like at the mine to be electricians and they said hey you know how about you come and do wiring for you know network yeah that's similar i could call it that makes that yeah yeah right on but um does it feel weird being down there though like i feel like i'd almost be claustrophobic or something it kind of was and um to answer your question there and it was two thousand feet underground so like almost half a mile yeah like what like oh and it's not going straight down right like so these tunnels just kind of like gradu like you get into one and it gradually goes down and it's an elevator i was going to the elevator takes you down you just go straight down yeah you go straight down and then then it branches out yeah and what's scary about the elevators there's no lights on it so as you're going down it's just pitch black until you get to where you're going oh my god so the elevator ride is almost half a mile yeah nope there's different levels why can't why can't they put a light on the elevator it's got power that's this dude yeah wait a second how do they run access down there in the gold tunnel and you can you can't even get a freaking light they got wi-fi six down they don't have to kill me are there canaries in in the things oh good question good question i don't remember you don't remember okay all right so that will stop beating up the gold mine there was probably wireless canary so that way if they did die yes iot it's like the the moisture sensor yeah we could do all that with the technology nowadays all right so so you you had the help desk job how long were you at the mining company your second go around i was there from july to october it's only like four months oh okay yeah okay okay so then i i remember sitting there um at the in the little office because they had uh what are they called like the what are those things that you call yeah in school they were like classrooms like built outside yeah the trailers yeah i don't know i can think of that word but uh yeah it was just like i was sitting in the trailer and i got an email from uh you know for a knock position and my first response was where's this job at i didn't even ask him anything and happened to be in omaha and i was like i was it sounds like a really good opportunity and you know the the manager really sold me on it and i decided i want to go back to nebraska um just want to get kind of away from home uh grew up in las vegas i thought it would be kind of cool to be somewhere else so accepted the knock job and moved to nebraska hey wait are you so you're in nebraska now yeah no do you know tim yeah it's basically what happens right so like if we know a single person from any of those states it's like hey do you know so and so even though there's only about 17 million of you in nebraska but you know yeah but there's only like six it guys so right yeah right they're all in our discord channel we should start with the hashtag nebraska baby kev how was your how was your interview with the knock um was it ralph actually that was one of my better ones okay um you know i had gotten beat up in a lot of previous interviews you know um the lighting was so good though like what was so good about it do you think was it just because you were able to answer all the questions they gave you or did it just feel good were the with the people cool well number one i got the job so that's why i feel good about it okay no but uh that's fair man that's my biggest clue it went well no but you know they were ready to move forward at the end of it i i don't know i i think i just i got to the point where i was like you know i've i've heard so many rejections you know in all of my previous interviews who cares i'm just gonna do my best you know you just kind of yeah you know aren't scared of rejection at that point because you know so what kind of company was this knock for uh oh okay all right yeah yeah and so um about uh you know but after that interview um about two months later i i move into a friend's house here in omaha and i you know start my job um it was really interesting because i remember seeing what people were doing and i was like man this stuff seems so advanced i didn't even see you mean at the knock yeah at the knock so i skipped the head a little bit uh but i remember you know my first day at the job thinking just i don't know i thought it was so cool what people were doing and even though it was like in networking terms it's probably like simple but you know i was i was so excited for my first networking role that everything was cool since i got there so that's an interesting take because i was actually just going to ask you so like because i asked andy this last week because i think it's important to bring up because if anybody's listening that has not had or is trying to get like maybe their first job you know a lot of times it's help desk like you did right but sometimes it could be the knock or maybe their first like post help desk job could be the knock and it seems it's just like a really good spot to be and what i was asking andy and i'm gonna ask you the same thing is and you kind of already did address it but so day one like you've never worked in a knock and most of the stuff you probably heard in there was probably like what um and i'm guessing like from from a tools and like like perspective like all of that is completely brand new to you right how does one first of all not crap their pants thinking about that right and two how do like what's your approach then on a daily basis knowing that you just even like just standing in there you hear a bunch of stuff that you've never heard before how do you go about like grasping all of that so that you you don't feel like you have no idea what you're doing and that you you could be like not necessarily the best but one of the best um you know luckily for me i'd say i had the managers the engineers in there were extremely helpful like they didn't make me feel pressured as i came in to that i need to know everything uh you know they help me get that sense that as long as i'm trying hard i'm learning you know every day i'm getting better that you know it's okay and plus you know my first two weeks were pretty slow so that kind of helped me ease into it as i'm you know going and getting more comfortable the the first week was basically just paperwork all right and then the second week i was in a class um just me the other new hires and the engineer and um trainer was really good you know he's he's still there the excellent engineers you know he's amazing so having those other factors really helped me so you you got a training in that training class was it all knock folks or it sounds like there was other other disciplines in there too right uh no sorry i should have clarified uh that was just me and the other new knock hires oh okay so it's all knock folks okay that's helpful so andy did you get a new hired class when you went to the knock or no no they just kind of were like here you go yeah it was all just shadowing and learning from people there was no class so they just threw you in the fire didn't yeah kevin you said that like you know you were in there they sent you the new hire but they they weren't pressuring you to learn anything so i have to think though that at some point they would have been like hey bro get with it you know what i mean like you don't have to learn anything right away but like there's you know it's kind of like when they like aj they give aj unlimited pto right it's because they're going to call you all the time when you're off right but it's the same thing it's like no no dude take your time but then two months into it they're like uh how stupid are you man like come on like let's get with it you know what i mean like like was there some sort of like there's a little bit of pressure there right if not from your own self i would imagine oh yeah i mean it wasn't necessarily that there wasn't any pressure to learn it's just the expectation that i i didn't have to know everything today as you know so and um yeah you know i i just i think i'm self-driven and you know i motivated myself and i i just another thing that kind of really helped me there too is um since i was learning new things every day that was exciting so like i i came to actually love that job and so i think that in itself like every day i was like oh man there's so much new stuff i get to learn you know it it since it was so fun i think that's kind of what helped me uh you know try to learn every day i think that's all perspective honestly because i feel like there's two ways you could take that number one because it's a lot of stuff so number one is like this is overwhelming i give up uh and then the other is like ooh new shiny stuff like every five seconds right and you're like ooh now this now this now this be more like kevin you're more like heaven less like annie and more like i mean i i do understand the uh the overwhelming perspective it's you know there's a lot of technologies now you know it's hard to keep up dude that's what i'm saying because like okay so this is why i'm trying to break pick elle's brain so much is because i'm not saying that i would ever try to get a knock position but like uh i haven't had one so when i look at it just as i would if if i was trying to get my first or second job or whatever and i would probably look at that like that's freaking overwhelming because there's so much stuff and like i mentioned earlier too it's like even if you went to school for like 12 years you still go to a specific employer and they're gonna have different tools they're gonna have a ticketing system that is not the same program that you're used to or you know what i mean there's always just like these like nuances and stuff like that so how does one then like just take it as it comes right because me personally i know if i looked at it and i got their day one i'd be like yeah this is this is about as much anxiety as i'm gonna have because i like it's just gonna keep escalating for me because i'm gonna find something new like you get excited about it i find something new i'm like oh great now something else i need to worry about right kind of like andy um so what what what's your secret dude like this just like is this just a mindset on like oh it's cool it's new stuff um i don't know i i would say the most important thing is i you know i know that i'm going to spend a ton of time at work so i'm going to enjoy it you know and so i think that that's kind of where my mindset comes if i have to spend this much time i'd rather not be miserable for 40 hours a week you know so might as well enjoy it there's a lot in there right there yeah so that's just kind of how i approach it and you know i just try to be as positive as i can you know yeah well you're doing a good job at it i can tell you that so so andy tooted your horn uh for you and apparently you're like one of the best at the knock ever to walk this earth teaches your secret here so what because you know day one you don't know anything you're the low person on the totem pole obviously if not just for tenure but how do you then after all of this stuff get to now you're the dude at the top i'm not going to to my home like too late not see now you just have to explain it the horn has been tooted now you just got to give us the sheet music because we didn't we don't know sorry about secret stuff so i think to add a little bit of perspective to this too day one okay what what day are we on now how long have you been doing that job or are you still in the knock job or did you so i we haven't got to that part of the story yet i guess i started that position in october of 2018 okay and then this past september i got i'm now a network engineer so i was uh i went from just a techno you know knock technician to network engineer after almost two years yep so um i don't know i like to give you know i think you know i i've only been in one company as far as you know in the network uh as a networker network engineer or whatever and so i don't know what it's like at other places but i think i was just i was put in an environment where i had the opportunity to thrive because of all the technologies i had great engineers to work with and the knock we were also given a ton of freedom to you know actually do troubleshooting deep dives troubleshooting you know we didn't our goal was not to act you know page engineers our goal was to solve it ourselves and so since i actually got that uh experience you know i think that was extremely helpful and um the engineer that was on my shift he is extremely smart and he was a great trainer so that's what i'll say you know and uh yes you know those people can't teach everything right because like let's say you were in the class right then now you're not in the class so it's like okay well you have notes maybe but like you know you there's still a lot that you have to do on your own like here's what i'm trying to do kevin so walk with me talk with me um so like just pretend that it's my first day at the knock right what is the best advice you can give me hmm it's a good question uh so like you know i'm assigned to be with you today right and you're like look bro it's a long journey my friend but but here's what you need to make sure you do stay away from that laptop guy done you know i actually talked to uh the the new knock hire the other day okay and he was in you know he was talking he was with the engineer and he asked me he's like you know can you just give me some advice and i just told them you know just every day just come and put effort and make sure you have the the will to learn you know because you have an amazing opportunity in front of you as long as you're hungry you know you have the opportunity that's what i that's kind of what i told them i i think that's some really great advice like not just for the knock either right like any any i.t job any job really you know i'm hungry so when you say hungry you mean like just don't be satisfied like just keep asking questions like like what does that look like exactly so like if you tell somebody hey be hungry like what is it you're hoping they get out of that are they like anything they need they're like hey ask the smart person type of thing so kelly are we talking about curiosity like are you a curious dude i am i won't say that yeah i you know like yeah you know just ask all the questions you know we we have all the technologies here so if you need to study if you need to you want to look something up you know have it there in front of you um just put in the work you know it's a really bad explanation about being hungry you know well no i know and that's why i'm trying to get i'm trying to get to the thing because so because the reason why i'm doing is because you have you have whether you have just learned this or not maybe this is just an epiphany for you you have a secret sauce so there you go congratulations you have a secret sauce now tell us what the hell the secret sauce is bro stop holding out that's gonna cost you i mean to be honest i i i'll just say i if there's one thing and i know this is broad i know i've repeated myself but you know just just my enjoyment of it like this is i just i've built a passion for what i do um and to be honest you know like like the saying is that you know you you enjoy what you do you never work a day in your life so every day i go to work i don't even look at the clock anymore just kind of just work you know and i enjoy it oh dang you're looking an anomaly dude and having worked with kev for a while i'd i'd probably put a pin you know a point on that passion you know when you meet somebody if they love what they're doing and they're into it they're curious and they're digging in i mean all day every day he's just constantly digging into the next you know new technology that we're presented with and and excelling at it the reason i tooted your horn kev before and i've i've said this before but just to like level set us so i know we're not there in the store yet but when kevin got hired and and came on the team that i'm on i was like oh great a guy from the knock sweet like let me set up a call with him and you know i'll help him get acclimated i'll you know i'll show him how to do this job is that because you had the knock experience is that why yeah because i came from a knock and he came from a knock and and kind of like you're saying when you walk into a new environment it's pretty intimidating yeah going from a mine to a knock and then going from break fix at a knock to like building on a global scale it's yeah it's pretty heavy so i'm like you know let me just bring this i'm gonna take this boy under my wing and like help him out and i swear to god five minutes into the call i'm like oh shit like this like what's up old man well no this this dude is smarter than i am and i'm trying to help him so like it was just it was very humbling for me like oh wow um he flipped it on you yeah i just i realized he knew more than i did i'm i'm calling him in to help so ever since that call i've renamed it the kevin call and he just helps me for an hour a week when we get on but it was a call for me to help him he's he's just incredible he flipped a script on you so what kevin was saying like is stay hungry you know you were you were trying to because kevin um i i get the feeling he doesn't necessarily take people under his wing he just goes yeah get hungry dude and then kick some out of the nest you know what i mean he's like all right you know it's game time baby sink or swim you think that's kevin does yeah because that's what he's like like to get me under his wing in my automation journey so right but i'm talking about new hires i'm talking about new hires right like he's because like his best advice is like hey stay hungry right which is like it's kind of like the you know kevin you're you're a center right so yeah i always say the quarterback has like intangibles right like like in the locker room right like how do you quantify you know it's a passer rating doesn't quantify you know the things you do for the team and how you cheer them up and all that other kind of stuff right so so that's that's that's i feel like that's kind of like what you got too because you're you're having a hard time putting putting a name to the ingredients you know what i mean you're like you're like just do it like i don't get it like like why can't you just be good at your job like you're stupid and i guess the answer is yeah i am kind of but no i i love actually uh you know knowledge sharing and teaching others when i can you know towards the end of my time in the knock you know there was shift work so i worked that thursday through saturday and every other wednesday um on saturdays when i'm slow i actually would just pick a topic and we would just review it together so that we could all just kind of learn and uh smart so i don't know i i that's selfishly you know i enjoy that but it's also a way for me to learn you know by helping teach people um you know kind of solidifies that on me too yeah but but i guess that's really cool though so did you just have like a team meeting where you guys would just go over a certain topic or yeah you know well before covet uh we actually got to sit in the office together oh yeah but uh and we weren't is that what they were yeah i forgot about that yeah um i guess uh yeah we weren't spread out across the country uh so you know we were all in the same location um and then you and then afterwards we just sat in the meeting for the entire shift so you know what we got sent home but so you guys were just cranking it out then so how long were you at this knock job before you got stuck with andy a year and 11 months yes so what made you what made you want to leave or what made you look um i just i don't know i thought i was ready you know he's at the same company though right it's like a promotion he didn't like leave right yeah well technically how i got the job was listen to this this is good um i actually don't really like telling this because i i tell it you know it's kind of yeah whatever you could just tell i i thought i was ready to move to engineering i was like you know what i'm going to give it a shot i actually saw a posting on linkedin one of my teammates old dad is a one of my old teammates dad is a director of network engineering company and so i saw him post the uh opening i applied for it um you know and i told my job i was like hey i'm gonna have a i have a position i think i'm gonna take it an offer um and so i think about 12 hours later or the next day or something they're like yeah we don't want you to leave so here's network engineer position here they created a wreck for him in less than 24 hours dude first of all back up this doesn't happen no first of all that's called extortion i just love how nonchalant you were and they were just like yeah cause like we we try to help folks out with like ideas on like you know how to negotiate salary how to do this and that right and you're just like hey so i'm bouncing and then you just you just kind of ghost them and then 12 hours later they're like here's a position that we just made for you what did you say i i gave my manager a heads up on friday and i said hey on monday i'm pretty sure i'm gonna get this offer you know like the recruiters i asked for the weekend and so then monday morning comes and i said i sent them a text message that said basically saying that i think i'm gonna accept this offer you know i have it and then he responded and said give me some time i'm going to make some phone calls and in my mind i'm like i'm just going to wait an hour i didn't apply for this job to create this you know chaos right exactly that's what i'm kind of getting at because i feel like you know i i joked about extortion but that's what you would do if you were trying to extort your current company right just go kind of look and then tell them hey i was looking and then they're like oh by the way but that was not your motivation right you were genuinely like about to get a new job i truly believe there was no way that i was going to get the position that i wanted at my current company well i i was like like because there was only one group because you know they you know there's different engineering groups and so there was only one group that i wanted to be a part of and i was like there's no way there's just no way i'm going to get that job so i you know i found another engineering job and an hour goes by i'm like i'm going to sign this and i kept talking to my fiance i was like i'm going to sign this and she was like just wait just wait just wait and so it got stretched out over a day and then it was for me it was a no-brainer i was like i want to stay that's the job that i want but you know it ended up working out but if if i could apply to it at the beginning without having to get another offer i would have yeah but there was a position though so you yeah you created an opportunity for yourself it was really smart in my opinion on accident yeah i mean it worked out i can't complain i've seen yeah i don't i don't think anybody thought you were like most of us are like oh my god a job offer like you said after like seven months of like applying and then you're like hey uh it's it's like when it rains it pours right like hey guys i'm leaving for greener pastures they're like that's what you think and they just shove a bunch of money in your backpack good luck walking with all that money in your back pocket and i've mentioned this before but when i was in a knock kevin and i applied externally and i got offered an engineering job there was no retention offers they told you to pound sand yeah they got a real funny look on their face and they were like you'll be back no they got a little funny look on their face they were like i took it long enough get the hell out yeah so don't let the door hit you on the way out yeah i think it was a cool story but i always hear that like there's a reason this is a completely unique case in this regard because you always hear like okay so if if you're looking elsewhere and you got an offer and then your current employer comes at you with money and position and like promises and stuff that you should still sit back and reflect and be like all right why was i leaving this company to begin with but i think for you it's completely different though because like it was because you couldn't get the job that they just like threw at you immediately when you tried to leave right like i mean yes that when does that happen yeah i don't know i guess i got lucky you know i uh when i was looking i mean i still love the doc you know like that was an amazing experience it's just i didn't want to do the shift work anymore you know i and i felt like engineering wasn't you know advancing so i was like i think i'm ready you know so so how do you know like because it took you it's i mean you graduated like five years ago so like how do you know what is your internal clock what does kevin's clock say when he's ready um well now that i'm engineering i don't know i i i don't know what um you know what my future is going to hold i don't know if i want to look at architecture i don't know if i want to look at management because my master's for example was an organizational management um but you have a master's degree yeah oh you just glossed right over that like i mean graduate school earlier yeah i did bet so oh that's true yeah i didn't know you actually finished it though yeah so just a quick to catch us up when i went back to play football so some people what they do is they go back they take nonsense classes just to play you know right now it just takes a bunch of art you know art music anything and then they don't go to class and then they get to play but i thought well i'm not going to go and waste time if i'm going to do something i'm going to try to accomplish something so i started my masters and i actually graduated uh this last december i took a year and a half off because i got burnt out but um but the reason i mentioned as because you know that's why some sometimes i think about management and i just don't know you know i guess we'll see i'm really enjoying engineering for now so yeah well how so how long have you been doing this current job now uh you know six and a half months so based on it's been six months now so based on where you are now after six months and where you were after six months in the knock how do they compare um easier harder different i'd say i'd say i'd say it's different you know because in the noc i i didn't really know almost anything about enterprise you know networking uh so for me everything was brand new you know i didn't if you ask me like what a normal knock is like i don't know because you know i've only been at one only been at one company um but it i don't know everything just kind of seemed brand new at the time and now i can actually now i can put things together and you know it makes sense to me um like i can say okay this new technology how does that fit in with what we're trying to do you know and i think learning is easier because i have more of a you know more experience um yeah now are you currently doing like break fix stuff or is it just like project work uh project work um yeah mainly project work and you know just clean up um yeah try not to space crap yeah andy's the breaker the fix we got we got it so it's a combo talk about automation real quick because i do call you all to macho for a reason so like also kevin you have like first of all i think you were destined to be in the wwe with that name yeah like like there's there's nothing there's nothing like crazy about your name it's just very like how do i put this like if star studded i don't know like it's like a sir it's like a name somebody would change their name to you know what i mean like like charlie sheen right like you know like that type of thing well my dad's name is hector camacho but oh my god he's not better he's not the boxer you know no so but i've been asked that question before though no i'm sorry i didn't want to like i didn't want this episode to end without us commenting on how badass your name was who knows kevin camacho what do you what do you call him automatically so he took yeah automate there's a there's a big push you know with automation obviously everywhere but where we work and he's just in my mind spearheading it so i used to call him macho camacho because his name is so cool and then when he became my automation guru now it's he's just all the macho auto macho oh my god andy's too nice you know i i think i'm doing well with automation but you know there's still so much to learn yeah i would you know guru is a little too nice you know i i have way too much to learn you know well that's an interesting way to look at it but i think that the perspective coming from andy is that you've already learned enough buddy you know like you know it's it's good to be humble but i think that you're more of a dude and the reason why you probably feel like you there's always so much to learn is because you do stay hungry all the time like so for instance i'm just i'm just guessing this so your automation journey was probably like someone someone at work tasking you with something and you were like i could do that maybe google it or something they were like dude i could automate the hell out of this and then you were just picking up little tools here and there right to fit into like a bigger puzzle of what specifically you were trying to get i mean that's basically what automation is right so so yeah you may not have like some piece of paper somewhere that says you know auto macho um although we might we might at some point get you out of macho i'd wear an auto macho shirt uh but but i'm guessing you're just like putting tools together based on your current need which makes you feel like because that's how i feel too like if i if i build something for a specific need and somebody said hey dude are you good at automation i'd be like no i did like one thing that was specific to what i needed to do you know and that i would be just like you i think i would be very hesitant to be like yeah i'm good at that because what i'm really good at and what i meant to say that i was good at which is and i'm speaking kind of for you here is is that like you're just curious so you find something you do it and voila works yeah i mean i mean google google is my best friend yeah oh man we needed to hear that you know i feel like if you if you work in it and you you're not like wow there's a lot to learn here then then you're not asking the right question if you don't have the right well people always talk about the imposter syndrome so like because andy has imposter syndrome to you kevin so who do you have imposter syndrome too oh you know andy would tell you we have some brilliant people on our team so yeah it is those guys you know very intimidating yeah yeah you know y'all two ever just like team up beforehand you're like all right everybody in this meeting we're about to go into is smarter than us let's make them feel stupid as hell that's something you know you know that's funny that you mentioned that because um that has happened me and andy have talked and we're like all right this is how we're gonna go in prepared if we get any pushback this is our ammo you guys are strategizing it's like a chess game talking to these people yeah hold on let me get my note cards out you're like what did you ask me again i don't know i don't think any of them are preparing to talk to us okay no no no they were in their back of their head they were like wait till these two idiots get out where did the new guys gonna come up with yeah let's just stay quiet make them feel like they have a point and then later on we'll just crush them yeah you accidentally get carbon copied on an email like those two idiots were coming over the wackiest ideas yeah so it's you're on a team with andy now how long have you been there for six months then all right so how's that going how is he give us the scoop man like give us god's honest answer what's the what's the yelp review on andy yeah what two stars would not dine with again no no that's a that's a i like the rating system but i think we should start where what are his shortcomings let's start there like what does he mean we only have like 10 minutes left in the podcast yeah this is what i say there's two andes in my mind this is what i mean this is this is what i mean has he told you to get off his lawn yeah when i first got to know andy uh he was in my mind i'm like wow this guy is always studying he's doing a podcast like he's motivated and determined and you know he's doing this guy's great you know and in the beginning motivated me a lot because i was like you know you seem so busy you got kids i don't have kids yet so i have no excuse you know but you're doing the podcast and and you know you're helping out the community so i thought that was awesome and uh you know now that i get to i've gotten to know andy moore you know i get to see more of the you know the the real andy you know which is nothing wrong you know i i don't mean to say that in any are you disappointed no he's really not that busy he's just kind of a ton of though now i said that poorly i don't mean that in a negative way but you know more uh you know i get to actually interact with you you see your your real feelings on things you know i think it's pretty cool you know i really enjoy working with andy it's a lot of fun to be honest how bad does he shit talk us it does it don't don't lie he loves he loves what you guys have made here and you know the community it's it's amazing so well no dude i mean we're you're a part of it too now so congratulations you've you've uh officially become a part of the family so just like everybody else that we've interviewed and also everybody in our discord channel so i got one quick story all right hit us i i was helping my friend pick up a table from my house the guy was moving from omaha to georgia and i found out he was a network engineer and yeah and i asked him if he ever heard of you guys at the moment he said no so i'd encourage him to join the discord so i don't know if he i don't know if he did hopefully he did you know hey if he did have him he'll hear this hopefully maybe and then he'll say something maybe make himself known hey you've you've been outed man kevin how did you message in there real quick camacho man savage so so kevin i i gotta ask and and for our listeners uh you know you you kind of took on automation and you know at some point automation was new to you so is there like a i don't know a real quick like major roi automation skill that that you would encourage people to you know look at or pursue like what what are some of the things that you guys are doing with automation what are some of the tools that you're using you know if they're not proprietary is it something that's you know some available to like anyone and everyone um i will say you know there's a ton of stuff in automation and i i actually feel overwhelmed some days when i think about it but you know just python and ansible just you know get good at those things and i think everything else kind of helps you know build on top of those things but i think those are your core you know on automation um i started the 100 days of python course i absolutely love it that structure is amazing yeah so um yeah just say you know just just learn you know learn python and ansible the best that you can and yeah i would i would agree with that along with 100 days of code course any other resources you found particularly useful to get going um what are your recommendations man i don't we'll drop some links in the show notes yeah man no pressure though to be honest um i remember i took the uh some random course i can't the name or something no it was it was it was a website kind of like you to me pluralsight yeah yeah i took i took their python course um honestly mostly google i i at the moment i having a hard time finding uh following like a curriculum because everything i i just want to google what i want to know you know so dude yes you know yeah so cut out the fluff just wait yeah there's always fl like and it's not just like textbooks right but it's like okay so you named ansible and python those are two very networking obviously ansible but python is very friendly to network engineers there's packages for networking equipment there's all types of stuff and so to to go through a whole python course like the first parts of it sure you know that makes sense like what is a variable you know what is a string that type of stuff but then but then it's like all right dude i need to get into some cisco switches here like you got to let me because otherwise it's like like i mean it's cool and all and i just don't have that kind of appetite so i think you did the right thing by by figuring out where the two best places to start are and then basically just googling your way out of it right yeah and um i'm kind of at the point where i'm increasing my skills in those two areas but as i'm looking you know outwards that's where it's kind of get overwhelming because there's a whole different mindset on developing continuous development at you know it and you just got to change how you work and that's kind of the tough part but you know you just kind of tackle it bit by bit and you'll get there so oh yeah so you'll be like me and never get there you're studying devnet associate right that's what you're working on right now as assert yeah i actually um failed that test yesterday oh sorry i didn't mean to do that to you on purpose no way to go andy well there's a reason i'm asking if you'd be quiet long enough so yeah well so do you feel that that curriculum is like you're saying the ci cd pipeline stuff's like kind of tough and getting that developer mindset is is that a good base of knowledge to make that shift in mindset how's the devnet associate curriculum doing together for me i i i think it you know has some really strong topics um for me what's hard with the textbook stuff is putting it all together and what i mean by that is it's hard for me to take those topics and picture what it looks like in a real scenario yeah you know yeah yeah so i i i do think there are some very interesting things in there and very helpful things but you know nothing's going to beat experience it's how i view yeah until you like start working on a team that's all in on that kind of workflow it's it's hard to understand how it actually works it's interesting though like i this like back back door approach right which i think is actually better which is you know andy's always bitching about it by the way i gotta learn this now i gotta learn this now so much the whole community says there's just so many things i know i think you're better off though kind of just doing what you are like kevin does where it's like all right well i need to do something okay let me google it let me figure it out and then like you know two months from now you take 100 days of code and they're like backfilling all these specifics when i think the instinct is what is to want to take the hundred days of code thing first then you're like okay you're taking notes all like religiously like okay what is a string what is the variable you know what is all the stuff and then it's like you know is any of that really important yeah of course it is right it's like bytes and bits but like the important thing is that like i can get this program that i just wrote or the script i just wrote to log it to a cisco router validate itself and let me run a couple of show commands right that was the whole idea you could figure that out probably a couple of hours right yeah okay get your use case you know that that's a lot of things yeah back yourself into it that's kind of my my idea right where it's like that was you know i mean with automation is i was just overwhelmed by the whole thing because it's just like i have to learn all this new stuff but what really kicked it for me was exactly what you're saying aaron i found a specific use case to do what i was trying to do right and i figured out you know the whole what are you going to call it script kitty whatever i don't care but uh i figured out how to program the you know the language to do what i was trying to do and then along the way i started well now what is that why do i have to put that weird symbol there exactly yeah and then and then it's like you start reading into that a little bit more and and you start kind of going that way i think that's the easiest way from a network engineer trying to get into automation i think that's the easiest route personally no that's good that's good feedback i think you're right because we don't think like that i know annie who was just talking about like have the ci cd thing and like and kevin you brought it up it's like kind of hard wrapping your head around that at first because we come from a completely different world but when you when you're using automation not as automation as like a thing by itself but like a little piece of something is a just a tool of mine that i found on the internet that like i could do and then kind of like how dan was saying like all right why the hell i have to put that in there because what ends up happening is that because coding is so finicky right it's like you accidentally leave that out one time and the whole thing doesn't work and you're like how the hell did that happen oh i forgot to put it to indent something and then the whole thing yeah or an apostrophe or something ridiculous you know what i mean space it out or did you tab there's an argument there if you're anything like me you do the same thing i'm sure you guys all do this too where you'll have the code and it like does a specific thing you're like okay well can i change this one part to do that or what what in here is causing this to happen and then you go to try to change it and the whole thing doesn't work and then you're trying to figure it out but then that helps you too right because you're trying to figure that out too where's the glue at what ties this to this kind of yeah yeah yeah to add to that i think you know once you have your first use use case on your second use case you find little bits and pieces from that first use case to exactly it's just building on top of that and and you know things just start to make sense right yeah i don't think you need to anybody really needs to be overwhelmed by the the prospect of networking or coding or you know automation or whatever right because automation is in its simplest form is like you know maybe a line you know like there's nothing to it right and and same with networking it's like i'm just trying to get one computer to talk to another computer that's all right you don't even you don't even need any devices you don't even need to plug them in if they both have wi-fi connections they can talk to each other by themselves that's all yeah right technically you can view automation it's just a process if you just write out what you do and then do that over and over again that's automation and then slowly that can turn into code yeah like what what am i doing that's like so repeatable could i get something to do that for me yeah right yeah like if you guys haven't picked up that book automate the boring stuff like it's a really good book just there's a lot of like weird stuff in there but it's what you say dan book club book club automate the boring stuff i have automate the boring stuff and you know 80 20 principle y'all that's how i roll um any last words kevin kevin the macho camacho auto macho um i don't know i guess if i want to build a brand i'll use it you know you better go yeah you better go ahead hold on let's go ahead and get that for you real quick yeah but although i was just gonna say uh you know thank you guys for having me this has been great you know core man i love what you guys have done and you know i i see all the time on linkedin people reaching out to you guys and saying you know you guys have motivated me thank you and you guys have built a great community well thank you you know we appreciate that but you were part of it too like i drug i dragged you into it earlier remember that you're part of that now too so but keep this in mind that like the reason why it works so well is because of folks like yourself coming on here telling your story the more you tell the story the more people tell the story the less pie in the sky your position or annie's position or aj or dan the less pie in the sky those positions look right because especially when you're starting out walking the gold mine right at half a mile under the ground like i mean you know i guess the only way to go is up from there right i'll be here all day folks don't forget to tip your waitress anyway that's good for us uh we'll put all of kevin's stuff in the show notes kevin you didn't have any final words for us kevin if uh you want to share socials linkedin anything you want us to drop the show notes so people want to follow you yeah sure yeah it's just i only have instagram and just kept camp zero and now i'm also in the discord ah so wait so people want to pick your brain about um knock uh from blocking to knocking then they can come to you yeah if you you know i'm hoping to talk to people so if they want to reach out they can yeah i i didn't want to volunteer you there but you you seem like a pretty open dude so i wanted to to make sure if you were too shy to say it i was gonna say it for you because guess what i am not too shy yeah i mean it's just the best you know if i i'm busy i'll just ignore it but you know don't take it personal yeah awesome well thanks for joining us i know you know you take time out of your night to join us but we really appreciate it so um thanks for sharing your story too because there's a lot going on uh no one's gonna call you a jock we promise but if you have if you're watching this on youtube if somehow this made it to youtube please like subscribe comment do all that stuff because you know what it helps out the algorithm and um we just talked about automation and guess what those have algorithms too so pick up a book and read something would you because we need you to like this video otherwise no one is going to see it and we don't need other people stealing all of our juju um additionally getting our discord channel because there's a ton of folks in there nowadays and gosh if the information is just like swelling up like a balloon and we've heard from other places too from other folks who were in other discords who have subsequently quit said discords because they got on ours and they're like holy moly you guys are actually helping people and it's actually a community where people are talking to each other and sharing ideas and like aj started this whole show out with sharing wins for goodness sakes like what a concept so we're not just sitting around there you know picking our noses which you know i'm kevin you could probably vouch for too we have different channels about different subjects and you know subject matter experts we have people gosh we have yeah we have recruiters we have you know resume i mean like and everybody that's not in the industry there's like you know a good mix of people that are already in the industry that have been there for a while people that haven't been in the industry that are trying to break in and you know we can all share off of that off that um uh knowledge and you know whether you're trying to get your first job or whatever trying to study for assert or anything along those lines and or if you've been in an industry veteran for 30 years like all are welcome because we have the entire gamut of what i just named off so if you're not in there get out from underneath that rock and on mars with your boy elon what's that aj i said join us aj what's the word of this automation automation 60 000 that's that's the word of the day 60 000 that's how many you guys keep downloading this podcast ladies and gentlemen because you know what again it's helping out that the algorithm it's helping out our juju it's popping up everywhere so for all of us at the network art of network engineering podcast thank you for joining us this morning or evening however you're listening to us in your car at home sitting at your desk why you should be working see ya hey everyone this is aj if you like what you heard today then make sure you subscribe to our podcast and your favorite podcatcher smash that bell icon to get notified of all of our future episodes also follow us on twitter and instagram we are at art of net edge that's art of n-e-t-e-n-g you can also find us on the web at art of network engineering.com where we post all of our show notes you can read blog articles from the co-hosts and guests and also a lot more news and info from the networking world thanks for listening you