this is the art of network engineering podcast in this podcast we'll explore keys technologies and talented people we aim to bring new information to expand your skill sets and toolbox and share the stories of fellow network engineers welcome to the art of network engineering podcast this is andy laptop and at the end of last week's episode broadcaster was telling us about the type of workloads that are great candidates to build in the cloud this week we pick up the conversation with bart explaining why software development is such a great candidate for cloud deployment here we go here's a question too because you mentioned it a couple of times and and i i could again i i i'm very good at this speaking for both annie and i but i could i know from recent struggles andy's definitely on the same page as i am when it comes to software development okay so like this is something that him and i have have very very little uh experience with did you see me twitch when he said software yeah well especially from your college experience andy like you know it's like c plus plus and i'm out um so what is it about software development that that caters itself to cloud so well because and maybe you should just back up because software development is completely like just not in my realm of i have any idea what that is right like i i get it you could write like code and stuff but like can't i just write like code and stuff on my computer like you know what i mean i i guess i don't get it sure okay so can i say something real quick i can tell you so completely we have we have our own dev environment that we need to maintain so what is that it's a make pretend data center that the software guys test stuff in before they push it out the prod and sorry i mean to step on your bar but i i know we're building a dev environment in the cloud so it it seems like and i could be wrong but i'm just throwing this out there so eventually maybe we won't have to manage and maintain and replace eol gear every time it goes in my mind and i don't know but i figure we're getting rid of that on-prem dev environment and it's just going to be in cloud and then because for me as a guy who manages data center stuff i would love to like not have to replace the gear every five years and i'd have to worry about the code and like i love pushing that into the cloud i think that's one of the besides agility and and spinning up things quickly just giving it to them like you know now it's your problem you know now as a network i got to be careful because if i don't have routers and switches to maintain what am i going to do so you know cloud and programmability but sorry i didn't mean to step on your dev uh but that's my limited understanding of what dev is where it lives and why a company you know may be moving to the cloud because it's one more physical environment they may not have to manage eventually you know just somebody else's problem right totally maybe well i'm curious how much are you guys familiar with like a virtualization stack i know that this has touched the networking world heavily because a lot of tools are virtualized now but have we run hypervisors have we run yeah yeah storage area networks we've been through some of that yeah so i'm familiar with with that whole concept of virtualization hypervisors uh even containerization all that kind of stuff we've got servers in our home labs right we've got some vms spun up on it for and i guess maybe you know maybe that's where i'm going wrong right because i'm thinking about it from like my perspective so i guess i'm a networking dude i don't know you know i mean you know what i mean like what are we i don't know i identify myself as a networking dude even now as a cloud person i still say you guys are my peeps this is where this is where i came from it's what got me into where i am is networking yeah yeah so so then you'll maybe you'll understand a little bit more than than most folks would in that regard because when i think about virtualization and stuff like that so i'm i'm basically thinking of only a couple of different things number one running like some sort of like storage right like you mentioned like sand or whatever and that's usually the first thing that pops in my head i'm like oh you're trying to store stuff or information needs to be sitting somewhere like constantly and people are grabbing it that type of thing or uh me like virtual like a vnf like virtualizing a network function right like those are the those are the two main things that pop in my head so when you say stuff like oh this is a dev environment like you know how many times i've seen somebody type that or say that or i've heard it and i've just for some strange reason i've never even like googled it i was just like whatever dude not my language you know i you know what i mean like i sure i to this day i have no idea what a dev environment i don't know what a dev is i'm guessing it means development okay that still doesn't help me out any because you know obviously i'm underdeveloped in my brain here at this point so i like help me out here so you're assa you go to the software software development companies i understand that they're all writing code and stuff like that but yeah that's but that's all they're doing and like i i'm like man sure where i'm like oh this guy's in the matrix like i have no i have no clue what he's doing you know so what is it what are they doing okay start there what are they doing well for for networking friends i remember learning like getting into networking early on in the career and i there was invariably a scenario where you're like i need to see this in action i need to bring these ports online i need to configure these settings i need to get this trunk working and so you go and you buy yourself some gray market gear you get it installed at home and you start playing with it well in order for you to learn and grow your own skills you had to have an environment that was safe for you to work and experiment in for all intensive purposes that's what a dev environment is to these software engineers they need a room a space in which they can test parts of the code experiment with different integrations try out different interfacing options play with data structures work with different databases and use it as close as possible to what a production environment might look like sadly okay let me start with this way ideally if a software developer could have it they would have an exact copy of the production environment that would be ideal but we all know that that's unrealistically expensive and complex or just not available because we don't have any way to actually copy all of those pieces in some way for you to go and use them oh yeah without manually redoing everything sure yeah so a dev environment simply is a place where you're able to go and experiment in as near to real or neil to your envisioned running environment as you can possibly get and there are often a whole bunch of caveats that come with it and that's where for me when i first worked for my ivr company and i first really started touching software development i wasn't a developer i did a little bit of coding in college but then actually getting to work with my developers and learning about source control and learning about their testing platforms that they use and how they actually go through in quality control and assure that what they're creating does what they say it does and will work in the environments that they say it'll work in i did not appreciate the complexities of managing a development environment these guys will go in there where and girls will go in there and they will break the shit out of a system and they're like we broke it it's broke and i'm like dude i just gave you that before lunch and so there i am like okay let me get out clonezilla let me re-image the server for you and in four hours you got your test bed back and they come back to me the next day and the thing is trash and they're like seven versions of postgres and it doesn't work anymore it won't start so so the first time that we had a chance to build images and use snapshots and restore virtual machines back to a previous point in time it not only blew our minds from a possibility of functionality perspective but it changed their actual day-to-day timelines instead of them waiting for me for a 24-hour cycle to return a new test system for them they burn it down themselves they pull out the most recent gold master that i built for them and they run a new copy of the thing and they're back online in minutes that sort of power is what that's why i work with software development teams as much as i can because they are directly affected by some of the really big wins of virtualization and those functionality is available in a cloud computing environment in a much bigger way and this conversation gets into infrastructure as code really quickly um what is that yeah right hold on man baby steps you wait you i here like you're halfway through the the phrase infrastructure as anime as a service and you're like as a code i'm like now yo wait a sec first of all let's keep in mind i have no idea what's going on um but okay so the dev thing actually sort of makes sense now so so basically it's like hey i'm building an application i'm clearly building it to do something and within an environment and live in an environment okay yeah right right so it has to have a platform to sit on clearly because whoever's the end user of ultimate end user of mine whatever it is i'm developing i want to emulate the environment in which they would be doing that so so this this makes a lot more sense so i'd be setting up and tearing down um different different things that i could be testing my software against could be a web server a database an application component over here a mocked up domain controller that your environment uses things like that yeah yeah i'm kind of with you with the the replication not the replication thing but like the the golden config scenario where yeah yeah i remember uh norton ghost right sure binary disc level imaging is right yeah that was the trick for a long time the trick yeah like hey i need to get all these machines so like uh i used to go this game i'm do throw some more land in there for you um my first exposure to this was like i played video games uh very early on too and i was sponsored by a gaming center and we had a room in the back where we could bring our own computers in but it's a land center so there was 30 computers in there and like every three days or so the dude would go around and he's actually like one of my best friend i call him the dude but he's still one of my best friends um the dude uh he would go around and he would ghost all the machines uh i think he was so forward at that point that he was even ghosting them over the land which is crazy um when i think about it now i mean this was like 2000 right and yeah he was a thing for sure yeah so so he was he was imaging these machines so this is this is kind of what it what it lends it to i think and this is why it's going to make sense to me is because the reason why he had to do that is because when kids come in and they play on like you were saying like everquest we had a we had a group of guys that would always come in and play everquest until like three in the morning that's being generous it was typically like six or seven in the morning or just days on end and uh they're not here you can throw them under the bus yeah no it's cool they're they're uh that's the game is designed to make you do that anyway right so these guys be playing like 24 hours a day and stuff and then they'd leave and it's like well now i have kids coming in playing a different game and then the problem is all of their settings were saved right sure so it's like if you changed your resolution or the dpi on your mouse or you know just simple stuff like even the controls right like it's not a nintendo right a computer especially at that time wasn't anywhere built to be a gaming rig right like this is why xbox got so successful is because of that exact thing it's like yes turnkey yeah it's turnkey it gets you online does all these things for you right xbox live has all these things built into it but i guess my point is this you know the kids were basically like the devs in this the scenario where you know a group of kids would come in and they would change a bunch of stuff and then another group of kids would change a bunch of stuff and then you know that's that third group they'd come in they'd be like uh how did someone even change this how do i get it back to zero here and then you know enter norton ghost right back back to zero here we are but yeah but what a p in the a because like you said like putting the norton ghost in there and doing that that was not an easy thing and it was time-consuming super manual oh super super manual but but this makes a lot more sense to me now so the whole the whole dev thing with being able to go in and and i guess kind of the idea is too that from a dev standpoint you're almost like supposed to be breaking things in a sense right in most cases so it's like so it's like hey we let's try to break it like like what will happen if i do this like and i i'm just picturing windows applications for some reason i mean it's a little it's a la it's a lab right you want to make sure that you don't push something exactly you're going to take down all your we called it lab that's we didn't really call it dev and prod for our team we were a software development company so our output was the software that we created so the lab represented like 70 percent of our infrastructure other things too parallelism i would have three different lead developers working on the same project that need the same environment right they can't step on each other's feet so what am i gonna do buy three of everything we did a bit of that for a while i'm sure but the point is to think about the uh the capacity problem that that represents and that that is a perfect use case for why cloud computing services are such a great fit for shops like that because they have a real capacity problem and they also have some key functionality that they need that cloud services offer in a big way hmm no i mean that makes more sense because to me when i go in especially i'll just use aws because that's the one i have an account on so it's really the only experience i have for the most part um when i go in there and like the first drop down menu you see is i saw like e3 or s3 sorry e3 talking about video games um s7 yeah so nice so uh so i'm sorry man go ahead no it's all good so i said s3 uh i see the lambda thing and so what are those those are just then like um because you you said a term earlier and i forgot what it was but um i was trying to catch it but he did mention lambda but yeah but it was it was something specific to like what those are like the software layer manage services managed services okay so yeah so they're managed services so basically is lambda then like the supposedly the dev environment or how does that what are they why is there so many of them there's like 100 of them right oh sure okay so i guess just to step back here lambda itself is basically a container solution so you can bring pieces of software and have amazon run it for you without having to manage all the infrastructure underneath it it's just a few steps away from a virtual machine okay the difference is that you're not thinking operating systems you're not in you're not logging into them and managing software that runs on them instead you're like giving them this piece of discrete code like a zip file or pointing it to a source code repository somewhere where those the content lives and lambda then can run the code for you and it basically takes input give me some data and then it provides some output and that is in its simplest form what every application does and so when we think of what apps do and you get into software development you start thinking about functions and methods inside of a piece of code the goal is to find reproducible and reusable components and get it to do this thing this thing crunches these five numbers and produces this piece of output every time you can throw lots of different kinds of numbers at it but it always performs the same functionality sure this is the same thing that you would do if you were building cars you would figure out which part you could reproduce and repeat the process and you would specialize a tool to help with that cloud vendors do that exact thing and lambda is an example of a service that does exactly that it does not put the wheels on your car it only focuses on installing a really kick-ass radio for you that's it's one sole purpose just to do this part of the application world and then the rest of it is figuring out how you want to interface with it multiply that times 10 or 15 different types of functionality running as lambdas and now you have a microservices application and each one of those layers can grow and run in parallel and your application if designed properly it can go to this web scale target that they talk about which is basically an unforeseeable amount of potential growth and that's where some of that cloud fit comes in if you're not an organization that's worried about web scale growth of your application then lambda is not going to be a very appealing thing to talk about with you but if you're a software development team who is breaking functionality out and you want to build something that can handle tick tock youtube twitter level style traffic and parallel interactions these are the patterns that you have to encourage and these are the types of systems you have to have in the background you are not managing operating systems it isn't even a linux and windows conversation at this point anymore you are compartmentalizing parts of what the apps do so that they can be specialized the same way that henry ford specializes in assembly line it's all of those same principles that work here wow um i guess the last thing then was to kind of go back to your list about the menus yeah yeah so aws has got a bunch of really big products that are kind of cloud-native they also have a lot of like off-the-shelf tools that are just managed they have a managed active directory product they have a managed kubernetes project uh process that's available for running those containers they have a managed docker service they have a managed search service a managed analytics and query and data warehouse service so depending on what you're using they usually have an option that you can have a lot of control or a little control and that's the sweet spot it's a buffet where you can pick which part of it fits your purchase model and which part fits your skill set and so that that's what's really exciting for me as a solutions architect i'm helping guide teams to make the right selections when they come to that very healthy buffet wow so clearly okay so correct me if i'm wrong here what it sounds like is most organizations i know that's a scary thing to say because it's so it's very general but we get some organizations in here bring them in here come on hey he's talking smack about you again okay hey you idiots that were shaking your shoulders in the meeting room get your get your butts back in here uh so it sounds to me correct me if i'm wrong please and school me once again like you've done 100 times already um it sounds like that not a lot of people can realize the true potential or even see a good roi on moving to the cloud just based surely off of of what they have like as far as a production goes right like a mon paw place a uh like a um even like a a a normal sized software development company like a smaller one that's different i think because of all the things you've outlined because they they they are unique yeah sure but but okay so like a local bank like you know like to andy's point probably not right like what is it you guys are doing that you need to go to the cloud for is it fair to say that like that not as many organizations need the cloud as you may think just on the surface level because we see the word cloud everywhere and it's like oh you guys got to move to the cloud have you moved to the cloud yet you know or is it tied to the size of the company right like is it more for mid to large uh i would say that the reason nist even defined three different service models infrastructure platform and software was not um because it's about saying you should use this model because of your style company it's about identifying that managed services offer you different value augmentations if you have a staffing problem that's a different way of augmenting it than if you are missing a piece of functionality in your application you can solve things in different ways getting to work in a car isn't going to be solved by going to college and getting a degree you still need to figure out how to get to work so we see a lot of organizations that are chasing a solution that they don't understand and then selecting what they perceive as solutions from a catalog that was not designed to solve those problems so this is why i say if it's not software as a service you really need to go back and say whoa whoa what are we doing and why are we doing it and what are the timelines and the risk and value elements behind it um one of the final things to kind of keep in mind is that it's probably the biggest disservice is to keep saying let's go to the cloud we're going to the cloud get in you crazies everybody's going to the cloud because it's no well i'm just saying that the first thing i try to do is get them to stop normalizing the cloud as this giant nebulous thing that is like i don't know it's like a destination and that's not really what we're thinking about we're saying okay yeah you want to go on vacation i'm with you let's do it but let's figure out where you would really like to go and what's going to help you get there and so that's why software as a service uh emphasizes broad appeal for commodity services so this means that the likelihood of getting a good return on software as a service is fundamentally higher even if you just stumble blindly into it in the dark odds are you're going to be better at succeeding with a sas product than you are trying to remove all your infrastructure over to a cloud service provider because of just the fundamental ways that value works in the managed services model so that's that's usually the first thing i try to get people thinking about is like let's not just call it cloud in general let's look at which parts of your company are most important which ones have the best likelihood of being a good fit for cloud usage and start there and then look at the entropy that you start building look at some of the inertia that comes from that make some wins gain some confidence maybe improve your roi and before you know it we can start having a conversation about some of these more difficult transitions that you might be trying to make dude yeah you're you're less cloud bar and you're more like cloud dad right because because yeah cause you're like it's it's it's so funny because like i just feel like from a consultancy standpoint like you know the the the feeling is that like oh this guy just wants to make his money right but you have this you have this air about it where you're like hey hold on like let's talk about this first and and like you're almost like disappointed you know when someone is like thinking about doing something as opposed to being like yeah yeah no no we can move you there you know i'll take all your money whatever it's probably a confidence that comes with all your experience right i mean you you know what you're talking about you've seen it and you can probably see these problems coming you know where they are before they know where they are which would make i think you you very valuable i i want to before we run out of time i don't know how long we're going home but we got plenty of time still don't worry yeah i pulled our discord server earlier today and said if we were to talk to a cloud expert what would you oh snap you know ready for this well there's only a couple but the first one i really like um because it's relevant to to what i deal with um so tim mack wanted to know about multi-cloud what is it right you see see what just happened to his eye so you know what what is it why would you use it um you know how and why so you know what what do you have to say about multi-cloud okay sure so i think multi-cloud is basically um it's kind of the pinnacle of people being concerned about putting their eggs in one basket um they've been burned in the past by some software vendor every company will be able to stir up a story in which depending on this one vendor this one time or this one service provider this one time bit them we've all seen it whether that be an internet outage the loss of a critical piece of hardware um a failure in a contractual agreement or a service level not holding up muster we've all been bitten by if you haven't yet just wait so you're just dual homing to another cloud provider right because the one's going to burn you you know in an oversimplified way yeah that is that is the root of why we look at multi-cloud the truth is though that um there's very few niches in which organizations would really truly benefit from multi-cloud especially given that organizations that could benefit from multi-cloud probably already own extensive data centers that they could be leveraging and continue to leverage anyways so when i hear organizations that are maybe the right fit they probably ought to just consider the hybrid model and making sure that that works appropriately for them as opposed to multi-cloud cloud that's the shorthand of it essentially it means you're using a combination of deployment models and um that could include public cloud private cloud that you might be running in-house or using through other managed data center providers or leveraging community uh sorts of cloud environments but again they're pulling from the best fit for each uh particular scenario that you're in nist tells us right early on that they predict hybrid will be the most common model hybrid technically fits the category of multi-cloud you're still using a combination of systems and services right but you would have to ask yourself very carefully what's the benefit of actually running things consistently across two different vendors is that what we're looking at is it a failover scenario where this is dark and this is on um right are you running different workloads in each provider like you wouldn't run the same right right yeah right replications yeah probably the sorry no you're good you're good uh probably the best reason why i would say anybody does multi-cloud is usually because of data center location uh a great example this um i've got a lot of peers in south africa that i've worked with over the years and south africa has got a crazy amount of business down there and only within the last few years even had real high-speed international access to internet through a variety of vendors so the idea that you could run data centers operate services down there and you're talking manufacturing mining industry complex you're talking about major financial institutions it's a hotbed of business i mean it's a whole country's worth of stuff i mean you know what i mean you name it right like how do they survive without that and they just straight up did not have cloud service providers down there and it's one of the longest round trip times on the planet going from there to other parts of the world it's a crazy round trip time so forget your latency expectations my friends yeah right totally if that's a requirement then you were really just sol for a long time in parts of the world like that so fast forward to now where we have aws who's got 30 plus regions and azure has got a complimentary number of regions as well they're not all in the same places so running multi-cloud is possibly only most entertaining because of the location options that it might offer you if your software has latency requirements and you have to be closer to your users as an example or things like gdpr things that require certain proximities and locations most vendors can handle whatever those requirements are but there are always going to be edge cases where you might need to have a data center in a certain location and some providers are there and others are not now those those margins are closing fast because the big providers are moving and aws and azure are both in south africa now and the big isps have moved lots of really big pipes down there as well so things have changed but that was where we were for a while there and a lot of organizations still very much are concerned about their dependency on any one particular provider uh and it's probably worth their while to consider the implications but i've also not seen a whole lot of multi-cloud solutions that go well and it is definitely considered a unicorn that you want to chop the head off of as a consultant in most scenarios because it's just it's wildly complex and you can do it but you probably shouldn't do it in many scenarios so that's one of those sorts of things where yeah it's easy to access and consider doing that but uh really proving it out and demonstrating why that's valuable to you it's difficult and the other thing like andy was talking about earlier talk about end of life products the way that a vendor continues to grow and develop their own internal expertise is really impressive i mean microsoft has made amazing changes in the way that they deal with things like linux and the idea that you can now uh one of my favorite statistics is that azure runs more linux workloads than they do windows workloads and i i love that sure that is an incredible indication of where our industry is right now and you know kudos to microsoft for realizing that they shouldn't be competing with it they should be finding ways to augment and add value yeah that's really where they will continue to excel at it but to their defense they were a software company for a long time so running infrastructure wasn't wasn't really their game and it's probably one of the reasons why aws beat them in such a big way uh becoming the gartner top leader for ever since they created the infrastructure as a platform uh category of gartner services they've been up there as an innovator and the ability to execute against it for so long in the end it's one of the reasons why sticking with a vendor and encouraging them to grow their services in a way that will help you might be the better alternative to multi-cloud simply because frankly that's where a lot of the services came from aws is incredibly feedback centric they look at what their customers need where they need it and they develop their services in that way so it's kind of a win-win for a lot of companies if you can get the timelines to work right for you you might not be able to you know do it right this minute um but yeah so to get back to the multi-cloud question they're talking about multiple cloud vendors um probably one of the other big problems behind it is that the most immovable mass of gravity in any enterprise is their data so if you put petabytes and exabytes of data in one cloud vendor it'll be hard-pressed to demonstrate the value of trying to replicate all of that data to another vendor and not still have the dependency on where it lives and keeping your applications and all of the gravity mass of the world of data services around those critical pieces of data that's almost always the most immovable part of it the data interesting yeah you mentioned private cloud and i still don't understand do you have a simple explanation i mean it's your data center right that you somehow create a private i i don't get it okay so uh nist defines private cloud as something with a degree the most extreme degree of exclusivity they don't say anywhere in it that it has to be in your data center it simply means that when it comes down to levels of control across the functional stacks that applications live in you have the maximum level of control in a private cloud it could be a hosted provider like rackspace or somebody like your isp who gives you data center space to run it in but in the end it still needs to fit the five traits of a cloud service it needs to be network accessible it needs to have self-service catalogs it needs to have shared resources it needs to have metered usage so you're talking about granular uh kind of flexible pricing models as you go yeah yeah it needs to offer options like that as well um did i miss one did i say elastic i think was the last one on there that yeah it can scale and shrink so you can run a vmware based cloud or an hp based cloud or an ibm based cloud in your data centers and it will do a lot of those things but at the end of the day some division of your organization still owns all those assets and you're right back in the end of life game where you are replacing things and managing it and maybe you're really good at it maybe you really suck at it but that's kind of the problem with thinking private cloud and imagining the big public providers and thinking can we bring all of that in the final thing i would kind of mention here is that there has been a real big focus around this topic organizations not only have problems with um kind of the initial trust and migration parts of it but the logistics of actually getting that data gravity center i was talking about moved it could be really long timelines like multiple years before they're actually ready to do that and so one of the most popular things that's happening right now is bringing public cloud services into their data centers so you've got azure rack you've got aws outpost these are subsets of their aws and amazon or azure infrastructure that you can bring into your data center and talk to right over your local network using the same apis that you would use in the public cloud and what this does is it gets the functionality next to your data and allows you to learn how you're going to work with it begin building your processes around how to use it get some kick-ass latency out of it too because it's right there in your data center right so right yeah you start checking off some of the big concerns you have and you're now looking at a pretty interesting migration path that might really change or accelerate some of the ways that you end up ultimately moving to a public cloud provider oh that's crazy so so like i've heard i've heard uh multi-cloud or multi-cloud very little i've maybe heard that twice but the hybrid cloud then is obviously it's hybrid for one but it's a mixture of the public and the private right so how does that interaction happen and i guess i'm i i still maybe i'm i'm missing a piece of the private cloud model which is can private cloud still be like multi-tenant right like as a vendor i could still i can still have multiple tenants in a private section right sure i mean just look at how organizations use vmware right now you might have the sales team running 100 systems on there and you might have hr running a couple different servers on there and they all live in the same physical racks but there's tons of logical isolation that's happening behind them um virtual machines and now increasingly containers at this point is is the bigger story behind it because so many so many things are containerized but yeah multi-tenant is a key principle behind it that's where the sharing of resources comes in that makes it a cloud service um maybe just to make some folks feel better out there too i remember working with a defense organization this was early in my teaching and consulting gig and i walked into this company and these guys are well funded okay budget's not a concern we can buy whatever we want to buy that sort of situation and they're like we want a cloud we need you to come in here and show us how to get the cloud working in our case we want a cloud you sound like me dude it was awesome hook it up bro so yeah so i get in there and i'm like looking at him like so so you guys have you have containers you've got service catalogs you've got administrative layers you're using infrastructure as code you have all of these pieces and you don't see it as a cloud and they're like yeah yeah we needed to be a cloud we need to work like amazon's works and we're like okay well you guys have all the parts as far as i'm concerned this is a private cloud that you've built here and the only thing that's missing ultimately for them was really the user interface and experience part of it they're they're cataloging in the way that they were actually leveraging it from we're a business unit we want to use it it didn't look and feel like a public proud provider and for them that was the part that was missing it wasn't that they didn't have all the pieces they were missing you know the one cherry on top that made it accessible and usable for them and so this kind of goes back to organizations buying stuff thinking that the silver bullet will cure it when they don't really know what they need to buy and then you've got these crazy consultants that'll sell them anything that they want to that's what i'm saying yeah yeah yeah i mean the buzzwords are a plenty especially in that space especially when you're talking to a dude like me that has no idea what any of them mean i'm like yeah hell yeah we'll take that hybrid cloud that sounds resilient as hell to me you know what i mean like multi-cloud hybrid cloud hell yeah man make that thing multi-hybrid as much as you want yeah if you're running a public or i'm sorry a private cloud who are you charging for that meter usage the business units whoever's consuming it how do you make that yeah yeah well at that point it's not really about making a profit it's about being able to pay back this is where you get into a scenario where you're thinking about chargeback uh or showback chargeback is where the business units are actually paying another division to use the service so that my budget becomes part of your budget because i'm generating a cash flow to you right and you know they kind of treat them like separate businesses um that's a usually a pretty good pattern there if they're teams where everybody just shares one giant i.t budget watch out because at that point there is no chargeback or showback the best thing i can do is say andy your team used this much service and we've attached this abstract value number to it um just to kind of build some sort of a trend around it but to answer your question andy ultimately what you're talking about is organizations addressing how their capex and opex models actually work for their businesses and how their financial planning and forecasting is designed to work increasingly a lot of companies work off of grants or allotments especially once you get into like um the nonprofit organizations government yeah yeah they're not out there to make a buck and they're living off of allotments that come in and sometimes they stop so those are really really hard you're gonna have a really hard time demonstrating how a flexible cloud service is gonna be valuable to them when they want you to tell them what they need to request next month and you're like uh it depends and you're like if that depends out of here yeah no kidding the worst thing you could possibly say right like trust me i'm smart but you know it depends it depends on what you're talking about annie first of all that that that question you got from the discord was was sweet i got one more uh just one more that's what i was going to ask you i was going to ask you so i know you got to know it because i have i went for part two it's okay not necessarily cloud related but it's very similar and i have one for bart later i'm not even sure i can ask him because it might upset his clients but um this is this is all right so let me leave with that one then so do you have a do you have a favorite not favorite do you have a preferred cloud provider like are you allegiant to aws or can you recommend multiple do you have one you prefer or is that not even something application specific like oh no i'm a huge aws fan i'm wearing my cory quinn aws joke shirt today but um i fell in love with aws early on and there are a number of things that they do exceedingly well about how their systems are put together the culture that they have around innovating and growing um the role that they play in the open source community those are all things that help keep me in in the niche there's a number of reasons why they they really outperform some of the other vendors that are out there i think that in a lot of ways they don't all they don't just have the operating model but they've created these automated organizational units around each of their product teams and the way that they grow those products it seems like a super sustainable model it put them in the lead early on they have a ton of uh they have a ton of leverage in the market right now um are they first the market weren't weren't they like the leaders in building it out well when you look at infrastructure as a service and what it could be yeah i mean the idea that you could use their virtual network and run virtual machines in it that ec2 and ec2 classic when that came out that was that was aws that came from them envisioning yep and i remember my buddy was like dude check this out you can go on here and run virtual machines and amazon lets you network with it and you got routing and switching controls here and they'll give you public ips and right i just ran a wordpress site over here and just took me this i did it on my lunch break while i was spilling stuff on my keyboard and it's like oh yes big advantage i like that first to market yeah and um the other thing too is that a lot of big vendors now are getting to hardware and aws has made a lot of big hardware investments around processors and it uh their graviton processors that they just released recently is it's a big game changer because they are going back to some of the same problems that we found out with software-defined networking you don't want to share data and control plane because of xyz same things that happen when you're looking at how to get networking to work for virtual machines on a on a network card like smart knicks that are going to be vmware put a big roll out this year at vmware world about smartnix and being able to offload onto circuit boards some of the different functionality that we used to have the cpu handling a lot of big wins there power winds uh like okay power consumption and compute power winds that come with that it's all the same patterns for me though it's like looking at how cisco did asic based logic um no i'm sorry how north did a6 versus uh cisco throwing it at switching in the in memory space big patterns there but fast forward now and you guarantee you cisco is using eproms and reprogrammable asics and uh what's it uh programmable field field arrays and field gates uh those are all yeah important ways of offloading onto the hardware because we get it hardware line speed is awesome and if you do it right it frees up the cpu and memory to do other things that we need which are also awesome that's totally true that's really cool i'll ask my last question from the discord server so this was uh chris our favorite butcher turn it geek he wants to know oh yeah which programming language is the most popular in the cloud or or is that even a thing because he's he's a coder and he's also interested in cloud so is there a language that he should focus on if he wants to get into cloud uh i'm going to say that based on him coming from this group and asking the question in your discord channel i would look at ops sort of world so i would be looking at python or powershell and also i would start looking at infrastructure as code identifying how to get into things like terraform um some of these high level uh resource management layers where we can create templates to deploy resources you're seeing a lot of the same things happen with nordier and some of the python automation that's happening there in the networking world very big parallels across the cloud infrastructure so i find those to be highly transferable skills so when you say like okay so you're drawing parallels to nor near and stuff like that so so are you saying that so i'll i'll just walk you through what's in my head right now so so typically yeah it's very empty get ready for all these cobwebs yeah um so uh when you talk about like interact like okay so using nornar as an example like if if i'm if i'm a coder just asking like i'm pretending i'm chris at this point like hey i'm looking to get in the cloud like what what programming language is important because what you're saying is basically that these programming languages like python whatever come out with uh modules uh packages that interface with aws right or specific things within azure cloud like like you mentioned like that's three or lambda or whatever but sure basically they basically have built-in functions that that interact with the api and there's an old there there's like a language a package basically a language package that that those two endpoints shares that kind of like the gist of that yeah i mean they're basically there you did not need those modules to use those languages sure it's just a lot easier it's a shortcut yeah we're talking about encapsulating the functionality and making it so that instead of andy having to know all of the 200 sub calls that are made he can focus on just passing the right parameters in so that the language uh interprets it and frankly friends that's exactly what's happening in the world of all of the javascript derivatives that happen out there they're just looking for ways to shortcut and simplify the work that a developer has to have so they can think about the differentiating logic because that's ultimately what they're there for it's not all the pushing of the buttons and the levers it's the direction that it moves in and the functionality that it provides so when i think about the value that you'll get back from this developing some skills around using some of those classic automation languages i still think bash and shell scripting is an important concept to have as well all of these have ways that you can go and interface with cloud service providers to interact with their infrastructure so i i think those are very valuable um the networking world has got their own flavors of this i've been following john capio banco he's one of the guys that i follow on twitter quite a bit and his recent adventures in network automation have been uh i think just really evangelizing of what there is to win and discover in the world of network automation and if you if you're doing network automation you're talking about an extremely transferable skill set in an area that is guaranteed to keep evolving oh that's good to know too that's a nice little icing on the cake i would say um because yeah that's definitely kind of where you're right where the the collective mindset is of the discord groups clearly networking we have we have people that are you know they dabble or maybe they're more better at automation and you know like maybe a little bit more of a specific discipline but generally speaking yeah absolutely you know we're talking like your ansibles and you know things like that that's kind of like the level of of audience yeah playbooks are a great example of i called it infrastructure as code earlier you can think of playbooks as an example of that in fact there's a lot of a lot of great examples of how you can take playbooks and turn them into something that builds resources in aws for you launches servers configures them for you terminates them so the sky's the limit every once you start thinking api you're there that that is where all of it is happening across the software development world network automation world and the infrastructure worlds as well they're all talking to apis and they're just using their own favorite languages opt for powershell because it's more comfortable for you because it works well with other modules that you already know and love or use python to do it because you've got these other modules you're using or step out of python and use ansible or something like that on top of it to get you even farther away from that underlying code the sky's the limit and it's up to us to kind of choose which piece of that adventure we want to be a part of and that that's exciting i think dang so yeah no i've learned more in the the you've taught me more i don't i'll forget half of it but uh but that's still a w in my book that's why that's why we record this stuff that's why i recorded this stuff so i got a question dude also first of all i don't wanna i don't wanna stop this without at least mentioning this we had a jethro toll moment at one point i don't know if you remember that and it was the only time i've ever interacted with somebody on the internet about jethro and i i i just wanted to call that out because i thought that was super cool it's like such a wacky wacky band but um that brings me to the next part i've seen you do like your live concerts and stuff um explain the yurt yeah okay so when we left portland uh oregon this was um right after my son was born my wife and i were looking for a way to basically trying to run an experiment we wanted to figure out if there was a way that we could go and live rent free how would that happen what would that look like what would we have to do and we tried it out so we started looking at low-income houses low-cost ownership things and we basically ended up buying some property here in asheville bought it outright so we own the property nothing to pay on that just taxes um and then we moved and we were like well yurts are pretty effective for square footage and what you can get so we built ourselves a urine in the mountains here in asheville and we lived in it for a couple of years um as my son i guess he was probably like two and a half three at that time um so it's just me and my wife and him and too many damn dogs that's for sure so hold on here it a circular tent basically um yuris are traditional mongolian dwelling so they would have had them instead of tepees they could collapse the walls and take the roof poles down put it all on a camel or a horse and drag it across the steps out there in mongolia and so they would use them in high mountain areas they'd use them in the deserts they would use them all over the place very versatile you could burn fires in them but they're basically like a smoke lodge sure kind of like that um it's a cylinder wall so it's like cylinder walls it's round and then you've got a roof that's got little little rafter posts that come up off of it so it looks kind of like yeah like a little hut there and then yeah there's all sorts of crazy versions of them you got to look them up if you're not familiar with it they're really interesting um and there's a lot of places around the country particularly out west where you can go and stay in them at state parks and it's it's cool life in the round it's a bizarre space there's no corners life in the round do you feel like you're on like a uh the international space station at times only wanted running around the walls really quickly only when they stopped spinning it you know you gotta go really fast to stay on the walls all right so you bought the year you bought the you're clearly not in the right now right because i see a corner yeah so so you you lived there for a little bit too many damn dogs in there what happened well it was also off grid so when we first moved in we did not have power or plumbing wow how did you do that as a tech guy first of all um so at the time most of the training that i was doing in the consulting that i was doing was remote so i wasn't like i didn't need an office per se i needed to be able to go have office time and an internet connection so i was here in asheville it's well connected we had plenty of access i had some co-working spaces that i used for a while okay and i was traveling a good part of the year too so i would go and i'd fly and i'd go out and teach on site or go meet with clients and things like that so i just kind of supplemented it with other other inputs but ultimately it proved too much we had another child um we ended up being able to yeah we ended up being able to move to a house nearby on the same mountain and we still live up there but now we're in the middle of transitioning again and so this office that i'm in right now is one that i rent here in town and i use it for my recording studio and the yurt is just up there as a space that we have and we're probably going to be saying goodbye to it here soon because it's really uh it's something we've outgrown and we want to get closer to town and we're looking at making some changes so it's all just an extension of being curious and trying out weird stuff and i i would never be able to get my wife to live in it again at this point um we did that experiment and it was it was a good learning experience what's the thing that you have that is this the year where it's um sorry if this is creepy but um there's like stairs or something in there too or is that yeah so i actually yeah i built a loft where the bed was to get us up off the floor so we put the bed up in a loft and i had this cool like foldable stair ladder thing that folds down out of the ceiling so that you can cope with it i i grew up as a carpenter my dad's a carpenter so i i was able to do the lot of the building on my own inside of it we bought the yurt as a package but then i went and customized it pretty extensively and nice made it work for us and it was a project it was an experiment and we would not live in it again like that it does not suit our purposes anymore but we but we still love them and i and i would love to have a yurt again someday um if we move off of this and you just it's an interesting experiment i encourage people to go check them out and look at them um but i've seen it it was a crazy project yeah the off-grid thing kind of threw me off a little bit and also the fact that like so because this is what it always looked like to me just from an outsider it's like okay you got the year it's it's right next to the house now right like you built the house right next to it we ended up buying the house directly next door to it and i ended up running power and internet down to it so the recordings that you see of me in the yurt that you might find on youtube or in some cbt nuggets videos that was when i actually had the thing legit wired in and hooked up and um that was kind of towards the end of our time with the yurt so that was um that that's kind of come and gone now i'm using this space as a transition between um our next efforts wherever we end up landing next around town the yurt makes so much sense to me like it makes probably little sense to to many people but it makes sense when it's tied to you for some reason it's kind of like earlier when i saw the toilet seat guitar and the first thing i thought it was you for some reason you know don't take that the wrong way i know what's the tour part of it is the guitar oh you didn't see that oh okay so there's this google carefully friends you might want to stay away from this but so it's a guitar made out of a toilet seat yeah it was a toilet seat was like the head of the guitar and uh or not the head the uh the body yeah the body on it yeah and then there's like a neck coming so we found a fretless one where do you play bart because i see like your videos where you got your looper and your sure you play in that room there that you're in now is that where you're music i don't i haven't played here as much because i have to hump all my gear down here from out of my house but i have uh i have a work space at the house that i use above the workshop so i have a little garage space and up above there i have a streaming rig that's kind of set up for doing it it's mostly because of moving out of the yurt i'm trying to get it to a point where we could sell it off um and then uh kovid you know so it was like i can't play open mics i can't gig anymore i can't play with any of the groups that i wanted to play with around town so i started doing some online live streaming and i figured you know as a result of this coronavirus mess i wanted to hopefully have something to show for it so i've i've produced a lot of songs and music up there and it's it's a good it's a good fit it's been fun i enjoyed doing the streaming things that you guys might have seen me kind of like switch in between stuff like i do a lot of live streaming yeah yeah i use obs and and so i take those tools with me to an open mic and it blows people's minds when you'll be in there like and they're like oh this is cool zoom and then you start playing like canned video and like doing zoom ins on your guitar and it it adds to it that's rad it's a nice it's pretty fun too yeah i've enjoyed yeah i've enjoyed your shows and i guess you're not to call it a hobby but being a musician playing music i mean we had a mental health episode where we were saying you know what do you do for yourself we work in a stressful industry so i guess music is is your outlet huh uh i'm a musician and an artist i really identify as that and i consider networking and computers the tools they're they're tools i really fell in love with tools years ago everything that i do is about tools i love i love building stuff i like solving problems with technical tools i like paintbrushes and artwork i like mixed media i like building guitars that's where that double neck came from so all of these things wow that thing's wild too bro like yeah you made that goodness yeah dude uh i built it out of the existing guitars i mean i had to cut it apart joined them together had to get them all sanded rewire everything inside of them but um yeah it's super cool and with the the looping that i do which is where you can record and play back and you probably know this but um the looping is super cool and with a double deck now i have a bass and a guitar so i can add loops there and then throw some flute on it and then just just go crazy and it's a really fun fun the jethro toll thing makes so much more sense now cause like you had the double neck you got the cowboy hat going or they got the i don't know what is that cowboy crocodile dundee right like it said it was a cowboy hat when i bought it but yeah yeah it's the coolest hat i've ever seen i i i think i have so it's interesting then that your name is cloudbart and not artbart well if you look me up online if you google bart castle you'll find art by bart castle and you'll find my artwork out there i do paintings and illustrations dinosaurs a lot of music instruments um some oil painting some of these pictures that are back here on the wall back here are paintings that i did as well those are some oil paintings and i've got a whole bunch of stuff there yeah dude i don't i don't particularly like coming on here and gassing people up as much as i can but dude what the hell is that is that a telegraph it's a schematic for a piano key hammer whoa you drew that yeah so so i did the background first and then i went and i found some schematics that i really liked and i wanted to kind of adapt them wow so i took uh i took the schematics and projected them up on there and then added a whole bunch of extra flair to it too that's rad i love stuff like that it's the tool thing i love the way the mechanics of those things work and i got a bunch of crazy art you can check out if you want to look at it um but yeah that's what i love to do and i love i.t but i also would really love to just play music and make art all day long oh that that's refreshing to hear too because i think a lot of the times like okay you in particular again i'm not here to just gas you up the whole time but but you in particular like look first of all you have one of the one of the best sort of like uh i don't know how to play this like personas because of a couple of different things first of all your name is one syllable all right it's not a very common name no but it's but it's a very iconic name and your the cloud bart thing is it's it's just easy right you know what it is it's a good brand let's just put it that way it does it does work pretty well it does right so and i think one of the things is like especially for me and the other folks that listen to this podcast um is that you know we see folks like you and even just listening to you you know um it's like gosh dang like obviously this dude eats breeze and sleeps cloud right i mean your name's cloud bart for god's sake but i always find it very refreshing when there's the human element to it and especially you saying flat out dude i would much rather be doing something else you know what i mean that means a lot because i think i this is my hope my hope is that like people hear that when they're getting into stuff like this because a lot of folks in our discord are like that and and even me like i i don't know anything about cloud up until today like for the most part and you know i i have to i always assume and this is just kind of where the whole imposter syndrome thing comes from i think is that like yeah i know you but you see you see the figures out there right like yourself i'm including you in that and it's like gosh man i don't do i really have to dedicate my whole life and then i hear you have you not only not only do you play guitar and live stream but you built the freaking guitar for god's sake yeah um you know what i mean that like that takes time right and so that clearly means that you're not spending every waking moment thinking about you know what's coming out with the cloud and stuff and so my hope is that when people hear that they don't think gosh i just have to be completely entrenched in this whole industry as my like i go to sleep and i think about it and stuff like it's okay to shut off at five o'clock and to think about other things and to even have a passion that is number one in your life like even having the kids and stuff right like dude you've done a lot of stuff like i'm not trying to overshadow anybody else's accomplishments by any means but like it's a lot of stuff dude like you know just know we've interviewed a lot of people here and you're doing a lot of stuff man thanks dude yeah well you know it's just true it's you're just doing a lot and and i i like the reason why i even wanted to ask about the yurt and the guitar and all that kind of stuff is because um i didn't know you're an artist for one so that's cool to know but uh it makes sense but i i just i like the human element of it right like because sure because tech is by nature a very robotic thing right because it's technology right it's it's it's you know what i mean it has no personality um but when you hear that people are like especially like you creative because that's a different type of personality completely like a lot of people are analytic like like myself i would consider i'm maybe a little bit more on that side but being creative and artistic and stuff like that and being like in your case so far into that spectrum that it's like you're straight up telling us i would much you got the bumper sticker i would much rather be playing guitar right whatever the hell i'm doing right this second it's so refreshing to hear because when i talk to somebody like bart and he's so knowledgeable and is now that's what i'm saying so deep and so wide that my first the voice in my head says well i gotta double down and work harder and study more because i'm nowhere near that but just like you said bart i would much rather pursue any of my half a dozen hobbies than do what i do for a living right i work to live i would love to sit down and make some music i would love to dabble in photography like i just have these things that i really love to do time disappears and it really makes me happy so to hear somebody like you who is so good at what you do professionally but then to hear that you have made time for these hobbies and because it it reminds me like oh yeah right like i have a guitar i haven't touched in five weeks that i took out and i said i was going to play and i haven't and i need to be reminded because in this industry particularly and maybe because it's where i'm in my career but i feel like i need to study all the time and just you know i got to get it all in my head i got i would love to teach someday and we didn't get to that but i wanted to ask you about teaching and that's a skill i'd like to develop and like there's just all these things i'd like to do but they're all competing with work and i have to know so much and yeah it's easy for me to get tunnel vision so i appreciate you you know pointing out your hobbies and how important they are and that you identify as a musician first because that's huge that's nice to hear i see these people like hey you know like you got to do what you love and you know technology dusk to dawn yeah technology is my passion i'm like are you kidding me like okay i guess but you know not me bro i have an ipod okay i mean for what it's worth i do i really suffer the imposter syndrome too and i know that a lot of people go through it oh yeah um it's one of the reasons why i became a trainer was that it was a direct way to not only validate your skills but to share them and to engage others i i really really appreciate that part of it and it's one of the reasons why i've tried to build a a persona i was not cloud bar forever i mean not only that's only a persona that i coined a few years ago as a part of working at cbt nuggets and becoming a trainer who has a product to offer and is interested i started with it just as a networking gig to try to find people who wanted to watch training but i realized that the role that i could play in the community is someone to help keep people motivated and stay excited about a career that will just bury you if you're not if you let it and i see i know so many friends who have that exact experience and i lament it i don't want to have those experiences and i try i really have to balance it though because i i listen to a lot of podcasts and i try to find ways to keep the tech fun and still available and stay up on it it is it is hard folks and it will burn you out big time i know a lot of folks who really suffer from it so find those enjoyments uh when people ask me for career advice i'm always like well what do you want to do no i don't mean i don't need that part i mean tell me what do you want to do like what would you really like to do where would you like to live what kind of companies would you like to work for um if you can start thinking about those things early on in your career um it will it'll pay off dividends later on in satisfaction from the career so i always try to get people thinking about that and not just which search should i pursue next um right because there lies madness and it'll it'll just gobble your life up and you'll be 10 years later and you're like oh my gosh i don't even need that cert anymore i don't even remember how to spell that technology and you move on to some new target and it never stops so it doesn't no that's refreshing dude um so uh any final last comments actually do this since you work at cbt nuggets leave us with a leave us with your best little nugget that you have and i mean like if there's one thing that that people need to take away from some advice that you could give you know anyone listening to this uh especially and i want to target this especially at people that are uh maybe ignorant to the cloud like myself or new to it or want to get into it sure what kind of little uh last bit of wisdom can you leave us with okay well earlier today i made a little i get asked to do a little pr responses and write-ups for different publications and they threw me the topic of do i need a cs degree to get into tech and i get that question a lot okay um what i would encourage people to kind of consider here is that if you're looking at investing in your career in some way whether that be buying a book whether that be taking a boot camp whether that be going to a college or an accelerated learning program really ask yourself um have the objective and the destination in mind before and make sure that the the means that you're going through uh they justify that end result there i don't tell people to just get certified for the heck of it now i i like certifications and i'm i kind of weirdly like taking tests so it's not a bad thing for me but for a lot of folks it's incredibly stressful and you may not get back the thing that you were hoping for from it right so if you're looking at organizations that you might work with or partners that you might engage in look at their ability to help you grow your professional network because ultimately that is kind of the crossroads that'll get you moving laterally and vertically throughout the industry and look at job placement opportunities if you're going to invest in something especially like a boot camp we're actually going to a college they should help you be placed somewhere in the industry and not just send you out the door make sure you sign that money that they're that you're giving them right i feel very strongly in it and i a good example of this is that uh you know for me and my wife she is about to go into a master's program very excited for oh wow congratulations but yeah as far as like the earning dynamic in our household i have a less than two-year degree and i am working in this industry at this point i don't want to get in a bunch of crazy specifics about it but the point is how you use it and how you leverage it makes the bigger difference you don't need a computer science degree to do this you really just need to make sure that you're connecting the right dots growing a network early on and listening to the people around you for opportunities because you might be missing chances to move in the right directions that if you don't have the right feelers and you're not actively engaging others or participating in discord communities like you guys have been chatting about here you might be missing out on your next great gig um and don't be afraid to think outside the box so i i really try to get people think about the best way to apply leverage to their career because in the end that that earning potential or that life flexibility those things are all hinged around the employers that you work with and the people that you work alongside um and how they can help you move to the next steps just like i said if you see something that's cool go talk to that person find out what they did to get there and strike up that conversation it'll take you far you that that is definitely a common sentiment in everybody that we've talked to that i feel like has been successful which is everybody that we've talked to so that that's definitely not unheard i feel like it's it keeps getting reiterated which i love but i think the best way to sum up what you just said was something that you said earlier actually is the you love tools right and the tool is only as good as as its function right you wouldn't use a screwdriver to do what a hammer should do but you should be using that screwdriver to the best of its potential find every little thing that it can turn and use that screwdriver right so it's not necessarily what screwdriver you bought or you know how expensive it was or how long it takes you to get the screwdriver just use the screwdriver to the best of its ability and exhaust it to what get in get out of it what you gave into it right so sure nice little pretty bow on that i think but it comes full circle man just like everything else just like that yurt life in the round life in the round that's crazy uh we're probably gonna name this episode life in the round which i think are hybrid you're something like that so we'll get creative with it uh around it but dude dude thank you so much for coming on here and chatting our ears off um we really appreciate it um i you're pretty easy to find but uh we're gonna put your stuff down there anyway but it's at cloud bart um pretty much everywhere um bart castle on youtube right or yeah you can find me just give a google for bart castle or cloud bart and follow me on linkedin as well and of course they're at cbtnuggets and if you've got questions please hit me up i really try to watch my messages and respond as much as i can to people reaching out even if they're just asking what should i do i got this thing i'm in this place i love to talk and i like to be accessible so no no you've definitely proven that and a wealth of knowledge for sure which i hope you've you've uh exemplified sit in the crowd it's not gonna not gonna miss that i can promise you so dude thanks thanks much again for coming on here i know we've we've been bouncing all over the place trying to schedule this just because you know life happens to our earlier point right and you know what that's okay so we appreciate you coming on here and and our crowd does too i always speak for them because that's just what i do um and i just love bringing that up now too that's part of my shtick uh i've heard great things about the program so kudos friends keep it up i think that you're offering a really worthy service that's going to motivate a lot of folks now and in the future yeah that's kind of what we're hoping man and that's why we bring folks like you on here is because you know we we see that about you and and we know that that would add fuel to our fire so so again yeah we appreciate that from everybody ah yeah it's getting hot getting excited yeah so yeah man um thanks again um for everybody else um andy and i and for find us on the internet ask the student questions at cloudbart and you can find the rest of us at art of network engineering at art of netenge and it's on youtube if you're watching the video of this uh please like subscribe do all that jazz because you know you want more of this and you want more cloud bar obviously because look the guy the guy has more to talk about and you can find his channel via us as well which he has so thanks again for joining dude and everybody out there we'll see you next week hey everyone this is aj if you like what you heard today then make sure you subscribe to our podcast and your favorite podcatcher smash that bell icon to get notified of all of our future episodes also follow us on twitter and instagram we are at art of net edge that's art of n-e-t-e-n-g you can also find us on the web at art of network engineering.com where we post all of our show notes you can read blog articles from the co-hosts and guests and also a lot more news and info from the networking world thanks for listening you