this is the art of network engineering podcast in this podcast we'll explore teams technologies and talented people we aim to bring new information to expand your skill sets and toolbox and share the stories of fellow network engineers welcome to the art of network engineering podcast my name is aaron and this show is a continuation of the last show where we were interviewing the cbt nuggets trainer knox hutchinson and as i pointed out on the outro of the last episode that sometimes we get to talking and this is one of those situations that ended up being almost two hours long so we split the episode into two palatable chunks easily digestible where we left off was knox telling us about his experience as a cbt nuggets trainer let's listen in dude i was a i was a trainer uh at uh at my last well two companies ago for a long time and it was like you said it was more the former which was like just talking about my experience right actually andy and i both were at the same place so you know i was i was a trainer and same thing man i would i wanted it to be like your friend was up there and yeah i like i would get lots of good reviews from all the technicians because they're all just normal dudes right and they don't want some stuffy guy acting like they know everything right and because i don't and vulnerability like people love that but the other side of that coin is that yeah you're vulnerable you're putting yourself out there like 99 of the time like i get rewarded when i like go to twitter and i'm like i say something and people get on board with it they're like yeah dude you're totally right like that's a great idea or whatever and then there's gonna be like that one person you know there was well well technically uh you know it's like okay bro like we don't need that like we're ra ron in here don't come in here and then take a crap in the middle of the fun in the cheer circle like who does that but but that's part of like putting yourself out there right like so there is a risk involved with that aj has been doing it for a long time too i don't know if you've ever seen his website but like he's how long have you been blogging 2017 aj yeah yes 2017 i know blinky blinky and then a little bit before then on another site yeah so he's been putting stuff out there for a long time man and it's like even that even just writing stuff can be intimidating for the first time for someone because like like you said it's like is someone going to dive in here with a fine-tooth comb because we do that like we love as like people that love technology stuff like we love doing that to other people but hate it when they do it to us but boy oh boy do we know it's coming like yep it's it's you know what that's okay like i mean that's the other hard thing about this stuff is there's not like one well sometimes there is so there's not always just one way to do things right especially in network automation i mean my god there's like 20 different programming languages that can access an api but you know you also i you know i look to industry titans like even a competitor like nick russo he is an industry titan he is arguably in my opinion maybe like the top five network engineers in the world he still asks for help yeah you know and and he's still he's still vulnerable and says like i'm studying this right now so like you know don't think that everybody out there just is a mastermind and certainly like if you're watching someone's content you just feel the need to critique them like be cool about it i guess i don't know what i'm saying be constructive i guess like like just just know that i'm like a human with kids and you know i'm doing what i got to do to feed my family just know that my tear ducts are working flawlessly yeah and i i'm not i'm very well aware that my voice is something and i'm going to be looking for a trend in comments moving forward please don't go to me please don't troll me and go to youtube now and be like your voice sucks but like maybe maybe i did look up those voice coach phone numbers earlier today we won't check your search history or like that commercial where like it's like that data breach commercial where everybody's like saying out loud what they've been doing on their phone like i searched for 10 divorce lawyers today on the bus yeah that's you yeah i was searching for voice coaches sorry a little self-conscious but yeah it happens right how could you not yeah no i mean it's it's part of just putting yourself out there and i you know 99 like if i were to get constructive criticism i i do take it uh very seriously i always take criticism very seriously when somebody that's why we have the peer review sessions in the first place at cvt nuggets like it has to be watched by another trainer before it goes live because that trainer has to say like like we have a standard across the board that we all agree on and if you produce something that is not at that standard i'm pawning it back to you and um like i'm telling you like i have gotten some harsh feedback from other trainers before okay give us an example uh so he's the worst one yeah i'm not gonna name i'm not gonna name names but i call him coach i call him coach and that's because he treated me like a coach like on sports like they're tough on you and that's to because we want to win you know you want to get better so i recorded azure service bus getting into azure and azure developer like i could talk about that for so much time is it is it is the best kept secret in the world but outside of that i recorded a nugget on azure service bus which is a very very basic solution where you've got two applications that are trying to exchange data and the service bus is just a landing zone for that data so one will publish a message the other will subscribe to the message that's what service bus does um so i recorded like a little five minute nugget on it and it was kind of like yeah here's what it does here's how you deploy it here's some code and it was you know quite frankly kind of lame and the dude called me up he's like you better be happy that nobody else saw that because like you'd be in trouble dude like this is this is among the worst i've ever seen like this is not you like you should you need to do this over again you need to break it down like this you need to be excited about this technology because it is exciting for a software developer and then at my job at the other job where i was actually doing software development stuff i found a real world use case for it and i got excited about it i came home and i recorded like five videos on it and some of the best stuff i've ever recorded um so like i can i can't stress this enough like our stuff gets quality controlled and checked for like you know were you doing it up to our level were you doing it up to your own level interesting so is that the only job you have right now to downplay it like you only have one job you have a loser no i don't know i mean it's the best job on the plane i get paid to study and talk about what i learned i mean like who wants who could beat that i mean yeah it's uh i'm with you it it it's it's pretty cool and i mean my production levels are pretty high because i'm usually very enthusiastic about what i'm learning and studying so it shows just so you know like like we've all seen it like it it definitely and that goes for for all of you guys really it's like i i think part of that brand standard that coach coach was talking to you about like that is really something that comes through because there hasn't been a time where i've turned on cbt nuggets and thought okay i just want to find out what coffee he's drinking because like i love me some some ospf trust me but like boy not like that like well yeah and i mean so i mean just on the ospf thing like when you get to this when you do ccie stuff like you you're going into it with this mentality of like i have to master this i have to read the rfc and before when we start talking about lsas your brain kind of went yeah you know like lsa how about we just get to the network statement you tell me how it works like type of thing let's talk about areas because those are cool but lsas then when you do like start doing ccie stuff and the exam questions themselves like at least in my practice exam where create an area that doesn't permit um type 5 type 4 and type 5 lsas and it's like okay well now i need to know this but he didn't explicitly say type 7 did he so it's an nssa like that that's where you're like okay now this is actually kind of cool because now understanding the lsas is the actual behavior of ospf and i was nodding my head off on something that is actually pretty cool so almost like they should have taught taught us differently almost right so like what is because this brings up like something that's kind of quote-unquote bothered me i guess the best way to put it for quite some time like like what is the disconnect between learning something to be able to do it and learning something to like certify and to master it right yeah you can like recite it from memory yeah i mean it also depends on the certification exam because some of these certification exams they get brain dumped so much that the poor exam creators are backed into a corner to where all they can rely on is trivia questions right yeah like and you walk out of that exam and you're deflated and you're pissed and you're like this none of that stuff was real world well that's because people brain dump the heck out of the exams they do and and the only way the exam can stay relevant is by making like more ridiculous questions that were in the did you know blob in the textbook wow you know i never thought of that really i guess i never put myself in this the shoes of the test writer yeah and that's i mean that's an unfortunate thing that we live in in this world and you know i pass the encore exam i get 50 linkedin messages please provide dumps you know it takes that i hate that too but you know i also grew up on the streets and snitches get stitches so i don't report them and guess what guess what aj and i we do and i'll tell you i snitched on a guy just real quickly i snitched on a guy trying to get a jncia dump from me and i told juniper and they gave me a free exam voucher oh man see i have a great story about juniper when we get to it so snitches snitches apparently get exam vouchers is what i meant to say well aj i mean aj not stitches yeah aj what what was the what's the juniper okay so uh last week i go to take the jncis devops exam right so i scheduled my exam for monday at 3 15. yeah log in and i log into pearson and it says begin all right great begin download on view log in take my pictures do the whole thing and i get into the queue to take my exam and i wait and i wait and i wait like for 45 minutes i wait to get kicked into exam mode and it never happens and i finally get fed up and i'm like okay like the whole time like after like 20 minutes i'm like hello yeah can somebody start my exam i'm cheating someone hey voice recognition software this guy is cheating so i close on view uh and then i i go back to the whole process i try to you know hopefully hoping it's gonna like bump me up in the queue somehow that somebody's gonna see that i'm waiting to take my exam i waited another 15 minutes it's like 4 30. i got to pick up my kid from daycare i i bail uh prior to taking the exam i had posted a picture on twitter a funny picture of you know i always take my my tests in my son's room because it has the least amount of technology so nobody could possibly accuse me uh certainly not the proctor could accuse me of cheating in my son's room because it's a five-year-old's room right there's no technology in there right um and and so i post i respond to my own tweet i'm just like yeah i i couldn't take the exam they never pushed me to exam mode so the uh juniper certify twitter account responds to me he's just like uh so we looked up your your exam and it says you're not supposed to take it until 8 15 pm and i'm like well bro that is not true and i sent him a screenshot that it says right there 3 15 p.m eastern daylight time uh he's like okay we're gonna get on this huh so a little bit later i get a phone call and it's this guy that runs the juniper certified account it turns out he's the national director for the juniper certification program uh and he lives one town away from me here in vermont wow yeah yeah so so we had we had a great conversation um i'm doing these certifications because we're trying to better our partnership with juniper so we had used some uh champion codes uh champion vouchers he saw that i did that and he's just like i'm gonna slide you another voucher right now so you can go ahead and get this like rescheduled they contacted their uh pearson view rep to help get this like straightened out and within an hour i was able to reschedule my exam again and everything was cleared up um but but it was it was crazy uh and what a small world to find out that this guy is practically my neighbor right also that's so cool it is cool the also to the power of of twitter right i stole this from you guys all know the the bearded one carl zeller's out there dude i stole this idea from him and i hit cisco press up because they sent a book to the wrong place and within minutes these guys were in my dms like you know please don't do that again there's only 800 people that follow me like i'm not ruining your guys reputation but boy if all 800 of those people don't don't actually buy cert books because they do every last one of them does like i don't know a single person that follows me that does not follow cisco stuff you know what i mean so yeah that's i love that the power of the like the the bully you know like the mob mentality like you guys can't get away with this man like come on twitter i paid you guys and kudos to juniper man like they're really like trying hard to break into the space right and their product is they do have a fantastic product 100 i don't know i don't think anybody here sitting here right now that has experience with junos could look you dead in the eye and say that that junos not only is like equal to to cisco ios but the visualization of junos as a text-based cli is the best for sure like the like when you do a show command like the tiering and hierarchy of things it's a very simple data parsing scheme knox will tell you all about it all you gotta do all you gotta do is put a couple of spaces and tabs in there and it changes the world for everything and and you know and you know why that is i mean i know i know aj knows why that is because he just took the exam but but that's because literally every command that you typed gets translated to an xml api request so the entire database the entire config is actually just written in xml so if you do like uh show configuration and then pipe that to display xml it's going to return to you it's native xml config that's what it nor that's what it's living in and if you do show configuration pipe display rpc xml or xml rpc it shows you your command that you just typed it says we translated it to xml for you this is what we send in you see juniper actually invented network automation in like 2002 with a protocol called junoscript and that is what became netcomp when the netcom people got together in 2006 i think to create the industry standard protocol they built it based on juniper's xml api which was called junoscript so everything you learned about netcomp like juniper's like yeah we've been doing those for 20 years like poor juniper too because i'm a juniper fan i've had i got my jncia back in like 2015 or something like i i was like i did that before i had anything cisco so i've been a i've been a fan for a minute but just to your point we we have it right and i feel bad kind of what knox was saying i feel bad because they've been trying and trying and trying and it's just like cisco is just too big of a mountain man well in cisco's got just this like like their training their resources like packet tracer the images for cml that can go in the even g like just the entire industry shoves you into all of these pipelines because it's the easiest to get started with that being said the junos genius offers all of this free training and these uh these vouchers for taking the exams like there's no excuse not to beyond that of course cbt nuggets has training on juniper too but you know i took jncia devops and i created the jncia devops training because you know like why not yeah it's it wasn't there it was just the genius exactly so i'm like you know we can we can contribute to this community too and i'm also going to take the exam for free so right yeah and if you haven't done that just exactly what he's saying all you got to do is google juno's genius log in and you'll have at your fingertips access to everything that they have from like a catalog perspective and videos like self-paced videos very quick you know almost like just to the point they're they're nuggets you know dare i say um for the most part right and you know there's no guy like white boarding or anything it's just it's just like videos that they actually produced but what's cool is at the end you get the opportunity and i'm just kind of like clarifying what you're saying too because you took it all for free is that once you get done watching all the videos you get to take uh take a practice test if you d if you pass the practice test which you have multiple tries to do then they'll give you a voucher to take the actual test so it's pretty much a no-brainer right like if you have the time do it there's been some there's been some changes on that program recently just just want to make people aware it's like 75 or something now yeah yeah exactly but it's like a 25 exam then like yeah yes um and it only applies to the associate level exams so the jncia so the jncis and higher i mean the training is all still there uh and it's still all great training you just don't get the the voucher opportunity with the jncis and higher yeah and you don't have to go out and create the jncia devops course like knox did in order to pass this you could just go past it it's just good enough to put it on your resume so the story behind that is we finished up we wrapped recording devnet associate i recorded devnet associate from july till november and i called the owner of cbt nuggets and i said damn look man i just finished devnet associate i'm stoked with you guys great do it with juniper and i was like all right yeah you're not busy i was like i'll have a tea at the end of the month so that's literally how it went so um but i had you know so and when i was with the msp like we were a juniper shop that's what we deployed uh was juniper juniper juniper so uh pilots measure their skill in hours flown when they apply for a job it's like i've flown ten thousand hours into 727 or whatever um so i had flown tens of thousands of hours on junos uh and only a handful of hours on ios whatever it took to pass the exams by the time that i was you know at this point so uh the whole advent of cert pocalypse is what shifted me back towards cisco recently um and that's why i've been on the cisco train i i really really love what they did to the new certification exam tracks that is my style same um it's a little confusing for i think for some of us even last last week andy and i were uh talking to me andy and uh dan actually we're talking to cc ie by 30 dear footman i don't know you guys have all heard of her before oh yeah um so we were talking to her about about that exact same i'll tell her happy birthday she just had her birthday like yesterday did she oh yeah yeah so the countdown is on yeah and my mine's actually tomorrow believe it or not what happy birthday here yeah i'm gonna spin it i'm spending it with you guys i was hoping that i was there was gonna be a box of crawdads at my doorstep at lunch not the season it's not the season i just learned that too so i've learned so much on this it's unbelievable now this is like the off season for everything gumbo starts next month gumbo alligator was last month dude you're like you got all right stop with that because you're gonna get my mouth all watery cajun food is my weakness it's so weird because my like people will ask my wife they're like like so what does aaron like to eat you know if like we're going to something she's like so he really likes cajun food doesn't know how to describe it i'm like yeah just make it spicy and from the swamps that's all i want just put just put slap your mama on everything yeah and i love the crystal and i love louisiana hot sauce this is my two favorite things chris crystal's good i like crystal a lot we got slappy mama and crystal that's as bad as louisiana andy do you guys have slap your mama uh hot sauce up there we have crystal that's the see slap your mama's the seasoning it's like it's what competes with tony sachery's oh got it got it okay that's the secret sauce i have a question about taking the exams from home why do you know knox why you can take every cisco exam from home except for the ie yeah is that i mean that's a million dollar question right i i have thought really hard about why we can or can't take it from the ie because there to me seems to be solutions that you could so they did a webinar when they first kicked this off i think in may uh peter pauluk um i i'll never get the ch right in his name but it's palook um did a webinar where he showed they actually showed the entire lab environment almost all of it is virtualized uh you're on a linux machine a linux gui based machine the exception to that is the dna center environment they actually showed a picture of the dna center environment it looked like one dna center appliance and four cat 9k switches so i'm like those are physical but everything else is virtualized you guys created this amazing thing called anyconnect why can't i any connect in then use a vdi box to you know and i mean i'll install an agent on my computer so you can make sure i'm not using obs studio to record the screen yeah or something like that it seems like there is a solution out there uh but part of the experience they're just not doing yeah they're not doing it and they're not really giving a reason i guess they don't have to i mean so do you think we'll see that change though because juniper just announced you can do the j and cia at home the jncia did and i'm sure cisco's watching it but i they like this exam really really is the gold standard of the exams because of the integrity that's built around it and you know only one location in the united states to take it in now like it's uh and internally i have heard from cisco employees that i'm not going to name names but they will not reopen the ccie until cisco returns to work so it doesn't matter if texas is open if cisco hq is still closed um they're going to stay closed it's a california company just the decision they made i guess yeah i gave it to you integrity yeah same th i'm with you right because you even mentioned it earlier it's like there's so many yeah there's so many freaking dumps and it's like you know i actually feel like it would be harder to learn from the amount of dumps that are out there than it would be to actually just learn the content maybe it's just me like why would you spend any time memorizing all of that like how many questions how many how many questions you think like an old ccna or something went through like before it actually got updated to the next version you know what it means it's gotta be thousands thousands right so like what are you doing with yourself like 2 000 questions like let's say you had every single dump ever from the ccna 300 and it's like thousands of questions and you're like all right no matter what they throw at me i know it's but then why didn't you just it would have been easier if you just learned the stuff yeah i don't know but i mean you know this this goes back to like you know the best things that you maybe that was the best thing that ever happened to me when i lost my job back in april like maybe this being closed is the best thing to ever happen to me again because now i can focus a little bit less on studying a little bit more in my family get the twins you know born situated and alive and you know breathing and you know into a stable solution and that gives me an extra year or so to study for it and now i've got nick russo's ccie service provider textbook huge amount of overlap between those two exams but it's like 3 000 pages long no exaggeration so that gives me a year to like read that book so you know i mean like this is just extra time that i can just drill these concepts home because i'm still like super weak on multicast you know my mpls layer 3 vpn video went live yesterday i got totally clobbered by stupid eigrp mistake like i got it i got to work on that mental stamina because that's where you know things that you know like inside and out like redistributing between two eigrp instances like somehow or other i just blew that up you mean like you mean like it let's say you like sat down to do the lab or something yeah and then like two hours into it you're like kind of tired and then something that you know like you're like oh well that didn't work the way i wanted it to and then you start trying to work around it yeah and that's what happened to me yesterday i guess it was like a month ago when i recorded it but yesterday in the video that i released like i had eigrp autonomous system make up a number 10 and then on the other side of the router i wanted eigrp autonomous system 20. but i did it in named eigrp mode so which is the best way to go but go on exactly exactly but when you type you know uh address family ipv4 unicast autonomous system 10 takes it you type in your network statements if you then go to type address family ipv4 autonomous system 20 under the same instance it says can't do that i'm already autonomous system 10. and that's when my head imploded on itself it's just funny you just go router eigrp ccie to just create a new ahrp instance uh yeah and then you redistribute and then you just redistribute them between each other that that was the the solution and i knew that but after two or three hours of you know drilling myself that one little piece just that one little thing i melted down so what i ended up doing is i created vrf's on each side of the router one called lan one called wan i redistributed one vrf into bgp for vpn v4 routes then pulled it out of bgp into the other vrf but some of the eigrp instances and the little attributes didn't carry over into vpn v4 because eigrp converges faster than bgp much better so the whole thing showed as like unreachable and all i all i had to do was clear iprout to make it work well but i literally spent like five hours recording this video going like why the hell isn't it working and it's just because i did the wrong thing up front so i learned a lot you you do you bring up a good point because like we were talking earlier about like going through the bullet points on the on the ccie exam and like you know sometimes it's just like a big word or whatever and and i work for a service provider like one of the world's largest isps and you know i'm like let me just dive into mpls a little bit more and i remember like going into the config for the first time and i was like that's it like like literally all i type is mplsip yeah and then i go whatever interface i want it on i just type the same thing like and then and then there's even on ospf there's like auto ldp which does the whole thing for you right yeah exactly and then i you know i was doing all this stuff like you were doing because i was doing like uh layer two like vpns like a vpls type stuff just messing around you know and not for anything ccie and i thought to myself that was like my trigger oh you know what maybe i could get a ccie that was pretty freaking easy all i had to type was mplsip let me just go get a ccie now uh but that's but you're not you're not entirely wrong dude because like three months ago i didn't know that right three months ago i didn't know any of this stuff like yeah i don't know it's just you know it it's just taking it a house is built one brick at a time you just start building bricks so maybe maybe it takes you six months maybe it takes you two years but you just do it one little brick at a time each one of these little bullet points by themselves are really not that bad no so that's why i'm just trying to say like don't buy into the hype that the ccie is too hard for you it is not yeah and don't buy into the hype that you have to do it in six months and pass on your first try that's not true either take your time but explore these things and even if you fail you have still learned expert level stuff yeah you can still roll in and do your job like an expert even if you don't have the certification to back it up that's interesting too i think that was some gold you just dropped right there yeah reddit gold which i was going to bring up this is the first time i haven't brought up reddit yet and i'm going to do it right now but it'd be nice if you pass because then you get your numbers because then you get your numbers and then we don't have to we can um get rid of howdy packet and make it howdy how do you pack it six five zero nine yeah you know what that number is oh i was gonna say about about reddit like you know you were talking about that config i was like hey if you if you're ever worried like that your config is is a little too wordy and perhaps you know there is a more streamlined way of doing it just drop that bad boy into our networking and let them have at it man oh man yeah yeah you want constructive criticism you'll find it ready dude especially you know what my favorite is and i'm just gonna go off on a change right now because this is what i do about reddit dude so uh hey i'm dual homing uh between two isps um what's the best way for me to influence traffic uh for x subnet and boy oh boy do the floodgates get open because we talked about it earlier there's no wrong answer do you know what i mean like like buckle up you're in here alright here we go well not so much i could do this and then i could you know i could like you said i could i could leak that route i could uh let's see i could have you tried med yet uh well i don't know does your isp support communities like holy crap like you know so here's what i did basic config is like three lines it's like okay but yeah i want to start a fight on reddit i just say physical labs are better than virtual and i just sit back and make some popcorn just like the match and walk away anytime i've ever tried to espouse the benefits of a physical admin it just gets people so pissed off yeah why is that why do you think that i don't know it's just one of those weird things i i i feel like we get off on having stuff me personally i don't know like i know all of you guys do obviously knox guy's got a ton of stuff but like i i am obsessed with evangee i'm not even gonna say why that is steve's great brother preach brother i got the pro hey one of the coolest things i've ever done with my home lab was aj and i actually got our uh meraki mx64s and vpn and he was in my even g instance like on my esxi host which i thought that was pretty cool isn't that so much fun yeah man it's like hey we're we're dabbling i'm actually trying to get a friend of mine in chicago to to log into mine right now but i was having some problems because i was trying to set up a vpn between his usg his ubiquity usg meraki not so much they're not talking right not having so much fun with each other man did you have a suggestion for me is that what you were gonna say oh no i've heard that the usgs though are is that right yeah usg yeah ubiquity yeah yeah that they don't like other vpn i did a usg to azure before and that was yeah it worked it was i mean it took a little bit of work it took a little bit of a little finagling but it worked yeah finagling is probably yeah that's a good way to put it because it it wasn't as simple as like a cisco ipsec vpn which gosh dang guis are supposed to make my life easier i know what commands have to jive right i've taken cisco tests i know what things have to match on either side if you could just get us both just some dumb old gross equipment just to set up a vpn tunnel i'd be good isn't that weird like things are designed to make our lives easier which for the layman sure but i shouldn't have to be digging through forums and forums and forums and cookbooks to figure out how to connect a simple vpn you know and like even maybe you're working with the mx64 right yep so i mean like anybody who's worked with meraki's remote access vpn is kind of groaning because now you have to build the build because you have to use the built-in windows client vpn yep there's there's no man like how long have we been screaming like bring any connect to meraki yeah give us how long has it been promised like i remember going to cisco live in 2017 you're like oh it's coming we're really close yeah they're doing a lot of cool stuff now but i think that one of the cool things about meraki is that early on they were teasing because cisco bought them right so they were teasing a lot of cool stuff i think they've backed off a little bit from that because they the viptela acquisition was huge obviously but it made them stay in their lane so like like let's be honest meraki is a great sd lan and viptela's a great sd wan and they are two completely different things and never the two shall meet right you ask a cisco guy hey why should i choose that like they don't want to cannibalize their own business why why would i choose viptela over meraki that's a tough answer right for them but i would i would assume that their answer would be if you if we were to say this is supposed to be for wide area networks this is supposed to be for wireless and local area network stuff i'm a big fan of meraki for small to medium-sized businesses too it's affordable and it still provides like especially the mx appliance that provides a better firewall than ninety percent of the other firewalls that they for sure for sure um but i i'm also with you like i don't i don't necessarily see the flexibility that there's no comparison between meraki sd-wan versus viptela sd-wan no but they are stealing pieces out of meraki and putting them into dna center their reporting in the dashboarding is now making its way into the assurance portion of dna center and vice versa dude so that's some cool stuff hey and this is this is the pot calling the kettle black here because like you want to talk about imposter syndrome i'm going to start talking about apis with in your presence so um i've always thought it was strange that meraki although they are very like gui centric and things like that they are not api first so like their their api documentation has like four things you can do with it right you can read like like the organization and some list and maybe change a couple of things but like you can't automate with those apis like things that you would want to so i think you you might have been looking on the wrong place because what cisco's doing now is they they've actually partnered with postman and postman now hosts their api documentation and that is what i use to create the meraki powershell sdk so i created powershell commandlets for literally anything you can do in morocco oh perfect okay based on that postman documentation um so i wrote that whole thing in c sharp uh and it was yeah but it did like you're right there oh like the open api documentation was pretty scant at first yeah and somehow stumbling through it i found the actual like if it's hosted on like postman's website like it's not a cisco website but all of the commands like every single command do they guys everything like like uh like it's um if you're using postman access meraki here's our postman documentation from iraqi it's that's kind of what it's definitely a postman website yeah but here's all the meraki stuff you could ever want to know and they did the same thing for dna center too um no i can't say that publicly there's something about it in the postman documentation about dna center that made me think oh they shouldn't have done that oh and that's i'll leave it there as we are all like furiously like keyboard in the background day zero day zero meraki vulnerability via api it's it's the dna center the devnet sandbox that's awesome dude so like if you were since you're doing the ccie let's like pretend the ccis is still happening since you're still doing it um what is because andy andy asked you know i got kids i got a full-time job i got all that and he's trying to figure out how to study all the time like what advice do you give a dude like that because clearly you're doing it right but like if you only have x amount of time like where should your time be spent that's the thing that sucks the most is like just having to give crap up yeah um you know we we went back and forth on twitter about eric thomas um and that was when i watched that video that was a different life for me that was a different era when i was much more free so to speak because i didn't have kids and i didn't have coronavirus but the thing that he said that stuck out to me and changed my life there were a lot of things in there there were a lot of huge things that made me cry but the big thing was like he said most of all say you want it but you only kind of want it you don't want it bad you don't want to give it you don't want it more than you want to go home and watch tv when you go home tonight you're gonna be on your phone you're gonna be watching tv you're gonna be playing games you don't want to give up what you need to give up in order to be successful you only kind of want it and that's what got me going because that was me i went home i and i played but you know don't go home and give up your kids i mean contemplating it we could we can honestly spend a lot of time on this and i won't but when when i when i was career changing knox i mean i was a cable guy spending every spare second of the day if i got job if i got that a job 30 minutes early i'm in the books in my van yep i didn't i didn't take a lunch for years because i was in the books in my van when all my buddies were at olive garden eating like that there was that climb out of i got to get out of the field and get a network engineer job where that's exactly what i was doing and living that that that message that you know that that gentleman espoused um and like you had said i didn't have as much in my life at the time it was just you know me and my truck and my apartment and studying so it's all i did 24 7. but it's just become more difficult for me you know that the more the more responsibility i get in my life like i don't watch tv i don't watch sports i'm barely getting six hours of sleep like it just you know it's just kind of and you mentioned something earlier about the mental health aspect too which i wanted to circle back to maybe we'll do that later but because of that climb all those years as the cable guy and working around the clock trying to get my ccna to get that job and then i got my first job and everybody was smarter than me so like i've spent the past decade probably overworking and going through these cycles of burnout because people like you guys on the panel that all have a ton of certifications i know all this stuff and like you know it kind of breeds for me that imposter syndrome of like well i must not be working hard enough let me stay up till midnight every night and study every night and i'll learn all this stuff and as you know you do that for a month or two you crumble you fall apart and they're like oh i can't do this anymore so i you know to circle back to you i guess i mean how do you how are you as productive as you are with all the responsibility you have in your life and how do you balance it all just how do you not burn out because honestly i can say this unequivocably there's nothing left in my life to give up and i can barely find an hour a night to study i mean that's just my situation maybe it's different for other people but i'm not doing all those fun things that you know are keeping me from studying i'm literally yeah you know but nine o'clock at night exhausted like i guess i'll open a book and what am i going to retain you know 15 hours into my day i i don't know the message i got from you is i need to be a cbt nuggets trainer and study all day and get all my i mean that's what i heard i don't know if anybody else heard that right now we are hiring um and i can put you in touch with the right people i mean that that is the truth that that is that is the job and i've been very fortunate that my previous jobs were i asked to be put into challenging situations with the expectation that they'll have to give me a little bit of room to learn it and study it and maybe even some guidance you know there was a eugene was on the show and he was kind of doing the same thing hey let me sit in on that meeting like i did the same stuff there too in fact there's like something out of all of your guests that i've had that i could relate to in some way like i could relate to to shala i could relate to taylor i could relate to joe so there's just something about all of those people that like there's a piece about it that i could relate to um you know taylor there was his level i mean of course he's young right and he's got all of this freedom so he's got like i'm just gonna go home and lab it like that was me well he's a lot like you i would say if i if i had to draw a direct comparison like taylor for sure like he's he's a lot less like sociable than you which is a very unique combination i'll say like like to be who you are like personality-wise and like do all the stuff that you do it's like it almost seems like you're shutting down parts of your body like during things you know i mean like like you can't just like i just imagine you in that room because you're always in that room right because we always see the windows 95 thing in the background but you're always like and you're you're like andy before the show he's just doing push-ups back there and jumping jacks so i mean that i mean that is kind of me um when i when i very first i s so i started recording for cbt nuggets i started the top low course in like september 27 2018 and then my son was born like the very next week so there's pictures of me like recording with him rocking next to me like sound asleep and i was like making nuggets with my nugget and stuff so it was like i like it i was like i'm not i'm not sleeping anyways so it might as well just work and that was why i was working two jobs um and you know the other cool thing this is gonna sound awful but one of the cool things about the director job is that you're a dreamer you know you're not you're not necessarily the doer you're just the dreamer and uh so i got a lot of time to experiment and learn through that you know when when you enter in that kind of position where the the spirits of the environment were very high the employers were very eager to learn and grow but they didn't know what they needed to learn and grow i was able to come in and be like let's all learn azure development together and let's see how we can automate some of our workflows using serverless infrastructure that will cost us free or like a tenth of a penny because that's what azure's all about and i could go on a side rant now about how network automation is missing this point in such a major way and it makes me mad but i'm not gonna do that i just hit my mic no please do wait no no no please do well i i would have finished i want to finish andy's thing okay but then i will i will but but like um like there's like i also had even while working two jobs they were kind of the same job like i was just learning constantly and experimenting so i'd actually like try and do stuff with function apps and creating apis and azure to automate some systems at lsu and then i'd go home and record it like and that was that was kind of like two jobs just kind of fed into each other and you know i just happened to be the actual luckiest person on earth right there that didn't have this like double stress because it was kind of like one job even though it took 60 to 70 hours a week right um you know like i this also circles back to uh the discussion of like why do you need to grow like do you need to be unhappy with your current situation is right now the right time to grow and that's what i've had to come to terms with right now through covet 19. like 70 hours a week down to almost nothing at least you know recording whenever i can like that that broke me for a while i bet for for years for years i was just on and then all of a sudden i have to be i have to be not on so i'm sitting there with my son playing basketball or whatever going like i need to be doing something i should be making money right now i should be grinding i should be hustling i'm not doing that because i'm stuck here at home with covet 19. this is bad bad bad bad bad i need drugs or something you know yeah and like it literally just over the last few months literally just imploded on me until like i had to have a zen meditation moment and just come to the grips with now is not the right time just be who you are do your job contribute to the world be happy in this moment because you have health and you have family and next year maybe your opportunity will come to take the ccie not that i'm going to stop taking studying or anything but maybe it's two years from now maybe three years from now maybe because the kids will be in school at that age and stuff like it doesn't have to be right this second and i've been killing myself trying to make it right this second it's like the universe so that's yeah i mean you're telling my story and exactly what happened to me and it's just so nice to hear you know somebody else say it because that's the point i've gotten to i had to because i was just gonna implode as a human being or lose my job because i was getting really cranky yes right now might not be the time and you know i'm surrounded by all these fellows who are getting hurt after certain you know they're all so wonderful and untouched by cove and so it seems but that's work that's the point i've gotten to is i'm just gonna do the best i can every day which is basically yeah i got two kids at home we're running school at a home yeah i'm not as productive as i used to be and i just got to do my job the best i can i mean i'm missing you know 30 of the meetings i need to be on for work like you said like eugene you know jump in learn stuff like i love all that stuff but i just can't do it because you know covered so i just think that's just but that's just the world that we're and i see i turn on twitter i see uh you know huge shout outs to these guys cisco panther lands a huge job at aws yeah that was huge yeah dewan lab every day is his first day at cisco was today holy crap amazing to these guys how on earth could i not be freaking jealous out of my mind right now because the rocket ship is taking off without me right that's what it feels like but that's okay because like you know what like i've got a job that pays well that's flexible i can study when i want to i get to spend time with my kid keep him out of daycare so he doesn't get coronavirus and end up in the hospital for the sixth time like like these things are actual blessings in disguise and most importantly it gives me a chance to re-center my life and my mental health and focus on some of these things that are actually more important so you know what it sucks i'm jealous and i'm so happy for them at the same time but my time will come next year or the year after or whenever it does come i hope that resonates because andy andy is our our resident like you can always tell right like when when there's like an extraordinary journey taylor was one he he was giving the exact same look when taylor was talking and he always i lo this is why i like andy so much is because you can see his face he just wants to know how tell me how that's all i've ever wanted to know my whole life is like like it's just painted on him he's like i'll do the work just tell me like so i mean before we get off of what you just said i just want to share a little nugget of insight i got from a very uh new dear friend now at work but i somebody pulled me in they knew i was struggling and he said a lot of amazing things as i was breaking down at work but one thing that stuck with me is you know he said your kids are going to write your epitaph when you're gone your kids are going to tell your story of the father you were and you have to make the decision on do you want to be the father who was always working always always at his computer and always snipping at the kids every time they came in and interrupted you so i just you know kind of like really just realigned me like oh yeah right i mean that's why i'm doing all this but yes there's people taking off and getting all these great jobs like i'm the only person on this panel that isn't like an automation guy so again everybody's getting ahead of me i need to learn all this stuff but really i have to be the father and husband that my family needs right now in a very weird time and yeah maybe this time next year you know it'll all kind of turn around but what if guys like me are are looking at you the same way though like i have all the service in the world like you know i've only been married for a little over a year and like i don't have any kids yet right so like that's something that i want and i'm like i hear now is a great time to make them we're not doing anything else you know i guess the grass is always greener right aaron like i look at your situation i'm like oh my god i'd be a ccie by now if i didn't have these two kids interrupting me constantly and then you're looking at me like oh i want kids so you know we're never happy i think it's the human condition and we're always striving for some well knox said it earlier you know like like the keeping up with the joneses almost right like the guys that he's like chasing like i see this guy this guy or or the rocket ships taking off it's like we all wanted to buy amazon at a dollar we all did but but you could still buy it at 10 bucks right like that you don't have to be the first and you and if this is the army you don't want to be first right you probably want to be like the second or third so it's cool it's probably stating the obvious but this is something else this guy said to me is you know it all comes down to your choices and i'm i i you know right now because of kova temporarily i'm deciding to be a committed husband and father to my family who needs me a lot right now and fortunately for me that my leadership is on board i don't want to say my job has to take a back seat to that but but i got to be husband and well right i got to be husband and dad right now i'm going to do my damnedest to do my best at work and that's a really scary thing to say out loud because i didn't even want to tell them because i'm like well great they're going to get rid of me which again wasn't the case i happened to be in a better culture than i had assumed and they're like hey you guys do what you got to do we're all in this really weird thing so that's good yeah just you know just interesting kind of stuff to talk about but there's always that voice in my head that's like you're being left behind you're not working hard enough i think i think the takeaway from that andy is that you should not be afraid at work to speak up knox mentioned the mental health thing earlier don't be afraid to speak up if you are feeling that way and ultimately at the end of the day like we're all humans anyway so the person across from you if they aren't not sympathetic but empathetic to that situation then you probably don't want to be there right like most of the stuff that you encounter that's difficult if presented to someone who's quote unquote and charged with you in charge of you if they don't react in the way that you think that they should be reacting then that is almost like you were weeding them out before you even started but this actually goes back to even before that what i was talking about the other day i was actually in our i was going off on a tangent you guys should have seen it i was in the i was in a general channel channel on our discord server and i don't even remember what we were saying but i just like i just couldn't stop myself i'm like stop going to interviews to be interviewed you are also interviewing them right like don't just clamor up and be like uh yeah yeah and then like i hope i got i hope i got it and then not even saying anything like like dude you knock said it too every hr person in that town knows my name right like if you got an interview i'm going in there with more questions than they have for me for one right and i'm calling them back before i even give them a chance to call me back like oh i didn't get their phone number i didn't ask when was the last time you did this riddle me this because i this is one of my favorite things to do they always say this did you have anything else for me even after i've done asked like 5 000 questions i'm like you really have the balls to ask me if i have anything else to ask you like i've just exhausted everything in the universe here like what are you guys going to do in 10 years when you cyborgs take over the world you know i'm asking everything and and then eventually eventually i'm like yeah here's my last question how do you think this interview went they're like well what do you mean i'm like well how do you think it went cause here's what's gonna happen i'm gonna go get my car everybody i know is gonna call me they're gonna go how the interview go and i'm not gonna know why am i not gonna know because i didn't ask like i could just make it up if i wanted to i thought it went pretty well and that's what most people do i thought it went pretty well but i don't know i did stumble over my words halfway through that and he asked me a question about dna center and i'm like i don't know that's knox's job and so like basically it got to the point where i just kind of look like an idiot but i wouldn't even know that that's just my perception right so if i don't just straight up ask at the end like hey dude how'd this go for you was this good like hey they could lie to you sure but at least if they lie to you you can go repeat to the rest of the family like i did well the guy didn't give me any constructive feedback like that that's his opportunity or her opportunity to say to you like you know what you actually did a pretty good job and you'd be surprised how honest people are in these situations you know what you actually did a really good job i liked what you had on your resume there's just a couple of things that you don't have that we're really looking for okay perfect how about i go get them like this is obviously a page out of knox's book what if i what if you just guys just hire me right now and i promise to get those skills then what right like no one ever thinks of this kind of stuff unless like you're looking at it from a different angle which i think like everybody's listening to this just just try it even if you're not looking for a new job right now it doesn't hurt go interview somewhere go apply for somewhere see what happens see what works you it doesn't work your your day-to-day job is is also you being able to sell yourself right so like you know you could say i'm in sales because i am kind of i'm a sales engineer right but more importantly i saw myself like that's my biggest asset like i'm not the smartest guy in the world but i know how to sell the hell out of myself right so if you could just learn that that's free it's easy all you have to do is talk about yourself god forbid the one thing you should know the most about is yourself hopefully if you don't that's weird well and you believe in yourself like that's the the big thing is like when i was going into these interviews it was like look i'm going to be a network engineer i'm on this trajectory right now i'm not there right now but i will be so i'm either going to do it for you i'm going to do it for somebody else speaking into my existence right like just putting it out there like like look i'm going to be this so like you guys can hire me now and if you or if you say no i'm here yeah and i'm gonna keep i'm i'm here dude i am not going anywhere i will be back yeah you know the job i the job i have now i i convinced them they should hire me because i had a home lab but the other thing i told them at the end was listen as long as it's not calculus or programming i can figure it out i mean i base i basically told them i know everything except calculus and programming no there's one more thing you don't know they hired me there's andy andy there's one more thing you don't know and that's uh that you can't use your ad credentials in the cisco switch unless you've configured radius to bounce off of ice we'll make fun of me another time knocks on that i do have a specific question for knox related to content creation it's a quick one but yeah d do you have a time limit and i'm asking for a specific reason i thought bgp in in two 9000 vs for two days in my lab trying to get two bite to four byte working and long story short i recorded it because i started to create some content for my youtube channel and what i found when i look back at it is it's boring as hell it's it's an it's an hour-long video of me screwing up so i'm actually probably gonna just i'm probably gonna start from scratch because i don't want to watch it so do you have i mean i've do do you have like a time limit you're like my stuff's got to be 10 minutes or how do you keep it concise and interesting because i bored myself in the last thing i tried to create so i mean my mps layer 3 vpn video was an hour and 25 minutes of me screwing up mpls layer 3 vpn but then figuring out how bgp interacts over vpn v4 between two different eigrp instances and it turned into a teaching content but it was like there for a while like i even had to insert a little record scratch and then having like an audio audio like i i said like in my video i'm going like i'm typing to i'm like well i guess i'm going to have to create vrfs and i went and i overlaid and said you do not have to create vrfs do not do this like i'm about to spend the next 45 minutes screwing this up but have faith in the last eight minutes you're going to see the solution and you're going to learn a lot about bgp and the igrp so if you haven't watched the video yet like that's one that might actually be worth your hour and a half of watching me totally screw it up the crazy thing is is i screwed it up so bad that it spilled over into the next video which was multicast because then i had vrs everywhere and i'd never done multicast within a vrf the commands are totally different so that that one hosed me pretty bad so first of all don't sell yourself short and think that this is terrible that being said my automation content for this thing was so terrible that i did scrap it and start over because all of the commands so on ios xe devices they are actually just running linux and they have python on them so you can enable what's called the guest shell on ios xe to take you into linux and make python scripts then you jump back into ios xe and you can create eem applets that run your python scripts so when somebody does shutdown on loopback zero it can fire off a python script that posts a message to your slack channel or fixes it or fixes it but why not you want to you want to snitch on that dude right let the whole world know hey this dude just shut down loot bag zero and that's why here's his ad you know bgp trust their bgp flow spec just hosed the entire internet a few weeks ago like so you could do stuff like that but anyways so like that was because they changed every single command to make it work it was literally an hour of me trying a command it didn't work gotta go google it come back to it try the next command it didn't work out like this is like that was hot garbage so like i was like okay i'm just gonna learn how to do it and then just like this is just gonna be a teaching video so that's what i did for that for nuggets um we specifically try and target five minutes for white boarding and 10 minutes for demo and the entire skill itself should be under an hour so the idea is like um you know implement lan automation in dna center that is that like that is the skill that we're going to try and finish by one hour you got to learn what lan automation is and how to do it in under one hour and i'm going to try and break that down into 10 6 minute videos or something like that so you know sometimes it goes long sometimes it goes short the longest video i've ever recorded for cbt nuggets was troubleshooting dna center lan automation because literally everything went wrong so it was just a whole lot of learning that had to happen there but that was a 17 minute video um so it took like it's what is the audience is the first thing cbt nuggets the idea is that you're going to get some concise little bit of information within an hour broken down into five or ten minute videos youtube on the other hand benefits people who make obnoxiously long videos like that's how the youtube algorithm works right like this is the part where it kind of gets salesy and you kind of like this part sucks but it's part of the job is that you have to manipulate seo you have to manipulate social media so there's a huge benefit of me uploading these hour and a half long videos for the free ccie thing because people watch them for a half an hour and then sis then youtube thinks wow this content must be really good because people are watching it for half an hour so it starts promoting my stuff everywhere okay so that's interesting i mean so which platform are you uploading it on how are you going to like tweak seo and tagging and descriptions and um considered a longer video on youtube would actually be helpful like do you genuinely want to help people right like i guess i would just if i was you i would just watch it back and go could i get what you were trying to convey there like you know could i learn it from myself you know what i mean like right my intended audience was somebody who's never gotten bgp up between two nx os devices so i thought all the mistakes were good but then again you're teaching people the wrong way to do it which could be confusing so anyway that's what i'm i mean that's true so it's like if this is my personal journey if this is my personal journey then like yeah this is me documenting and screwing up and i want you to learn from my screw-ups if this is like you're here to learn how to do bgp yeah don't do that yeah the worst thing you could do is show screwed up content like i i have watched training content from other providers who i pay a large subscription for monthly and like in a 20-minute video nine or ten minutes of them going why didn't that work and then they're sitting there thumbing man i came here to learn like see this this ain't it so yeah so like you gotta like there there is like what is the target audience and what is the motive behind the video is important too how do you get from 224 subscribers to 11 000. yeah again is the job at cbt nuggets they're the secret sauce here i mean because you're i mean you're a celebrity so that helps right it doesn't hurt uh that people are watching my content but there is a pretty clear line between what goes on cbt and what goes on youtube um training content goes on cbt personal content news goes on youtube and uh we don't really plug any of our social media at least not in the new content we don't really plug any of our social media within the nuggets itself i've got a little backdrop like aj's got it too from some workshop um with the light up no blinky blinky that he's got but yeah he does um so i've got i've got that in the background but it's like i'm usually like sitting over it so you can't even see it um they found that though uh no not really i mean it's just kind of like they're just two separate things it's like a faux pas almost probably like which one which one of you guys is gonna be the first one to be like yo check me out the idea that i'm trying to do is i'm trying if people are growing my audience on youtube i would like for them to check out our official training on cbt especially the stuff that we've done in the last year because it is wildly different i agree from from cbt nuggets of the past i agree there's still lots of good stuff in there too right because like the one thing i i always get caught up in is like oh gosh a new a new cert right a newer version of the cert but it's like i found myself watching anthony segura i don't even know when the last time he made a cbt nugget was well he's with it pro tv now exactly so like i'm watching his cbt nuggets on mpls like uh address a vpn for address families like ipv4 like that yeah that that well you know why it's still true because well yeah because it hasn't changed when you go for your cci what's the number one textbook that everybody tells you to get routing tcp the book was written in like 2002 for sure like or maybe six or something it's like a 15 year old book and the reason why is because it's all still the same like bgp osbf and isis and even though isis isn't really on this exam anymore but it's like it's all still there and it's all it's an amazing book i learned so much from it so you know that's that's kind of why like this is another reason why cci they come up with a new ccie and no one is really rushing to create a new course for it except for kind of me um and i'm only wanting to create content on the new stuff so that's why i was like we have to do an auto we have to do sd-wan we have to do sd access i think y'all were actually talking about me when you said like um i'm doing sd access so i might as well go for the cci it was actually the other way around i declared i was going for the ccie and i went to cvt nuggets and i said look knox the ccie learner right now is very stressed out about dna center the rest of the world is very stressed out about dna center we at cbt nuggets have the opportunity to fill this gap in a way that's never been done and they were like cool here's the credit card so buy some books and that's that's that's literally how it happened so i went to them with like i am a learner i'm in the world right now i'm telling you a real world experience that everybody else is stressed out about let's fix it and like they've been like whatever you want boss let's go dude so this is uh there's more uh nuggets and words of wisdom and you know uh so we still talked about azure and network development yet yeah no i know and i i'm gonna i'm gonna do us all a favor and cut us off because we're gonna split this into two anyway and also i think i just agreed for all of us here that we're we're gonna have you back soon because we just got so much to talk about because i think i think it's cool to hear from somebody like i said that you hear in your car or in your bedroom every day like you know like the the the voice behind the voice right whether you sound like a girl or not so um you don't sound like a girl you don't sound like a girl i don't know who said that but uh we will in both show notes right so we're gonna put all your information obviously they know how to find you on cbt nuggets uh is there anything that you would like to kind of just like drop as like a last little nugget no no pun intended uh we should have asked you that we didn't yeah yeah i mean i i think i don't know i feel like this was a really good talk about you know take inventory of the status quo because for a lot of people this is a really weird time and the momentum that you may have carried in the past has come to a halt and that's become very stressful that's what happened to me and understanding like it's okay to be who you are right now and even though other people around you are doing amazing things you can be happy for them but also be happy for you uh and just take a breather which is what i have had to learn the hard way nice over the last few months the journey will continue on for me on someday uh and it should continue on for you too there was all the stuff we talked about with ccie where it was like don't be intimidated by it and don't feel rushed to do it either you can it's not bad trust me it's a lot it's gonna be a hard test yeah um and if it's easy don't do it yeah well i mean yeah it's it's not bad really yeah like some of these topics like they're you know eigrp was pretty tough but outside of that everything else was like oh okay cool we're definitely getting of course to you leaving the the uh testing center um doing like the video like i'm sure you watched all of tony e's yeah stuff sure like yeah we want we want some of those right where where you're sweating in front of the test center like on your phone you're like looking around you see everybody else in the background also sweating and then we want the one of you coming out of the test center and you're like that was the easiest thing i've ever done in my life it was like that was that was brutal i definitely didn't pass but i know what i need to get better on yeah well that's the great part about leaving the test center you have no freaking idea right yeah i really don't right yeah and i mean like this whole new design portion and everything is going to throw me for a loop too i'm so stressed about that but um yeah i mean like it's i think a lot of people in the world right now like it's it's easy to get caught up on a couple big headlines in your twitter feed yeah you know so and so is doing really really cool and huge stuff right now why am i not um well let's lift them up instead right like let's exactly look about where we're at let's just stay down here and just hold them up exactly look the rising tide lifts all ships right yes i love that say it's it's it's so true and and you know what like your ship's gonna get lifted it might not be now but it will and that's that's what i think it's it's okay to be at um can't wait to talk to you guys about azure development oh we're gonna don't worry i feel like we're gonna start happening uh like a designed topic for us right like maybe we could just man like this this is one that i feel so passionately about like so that's good that's that's good we'll definitely put on the list look we're not going to turn you down dude if that's that's what you're worried about that's not going to happen but well i can't wait to talk to you guys about this podcast and get you guys on my youtube channel because like i have a lot of thoughts and questions and feedback for you guys too because what you're doing is is very real i think the you know i said it was genuine and what i meant by that is i feel like these conversations happen everywhere across america over a pint and you guys just happen to have clicked record so that's that's the difference and uh whereas all these other podcasts that i've never been really interested in it's just been trying to sell something or promote your brand uh whereas this is just like people being people it's like seinfeld let's just record this we're not doing anything exactly a show about nothing it's just this you never know you never know who you're going to get as a guest like it just you know things just happen um but yeah dude no i i speak i always say this but i do i technically i speak for everybody especially in our discord server when i say thanks for coming on here and sharing some of this stuff because we're going to at least be able to say at the end of this hey like guys we have a show about knox coming out but stay tuned there's obviously going gonna be more clearly the dude keeps learning um so we're gonna have to keep touching base with you we also said the same for uh dara with the the cc ie by 30. so we're going to keep checking in with her and see where progress goes and who knows man maybe you guys might meet the test center that'd be pretty cool that'd be cool um so yeah man we'll put all the noxious stuff in the show notes obviously all of our stuff as well you know how to find us um the art of network engineering pretty much everywhere art of neteng on twitter and instagram and then obviously all of our individual stuff as well so from all of us here thanks for joining us stay tuned there'll be more knocks in the future see ya hey everyone this is aj if you like what you heard today then make sure you subscribe to our podcast and your favorite podcatcher smash that bell icon to get notified of all of our future episodes also follow us on twitter and instagram we are at art of net edge that's art of n-e-t-e-n-g you can also find us on the web at art of network engineering dot com where we post all of our show notes you can read blog articles from the co-hosts and guests and also a lot more news and info from the networking world thanks for listening you