Exploring Network Engineering and Career Paths

Speaker 1 0:16

This is the Art of Network Engineering podcast . In this podcast we'll explore tools , technologies and technology keeping . We aim to bring you information that will expand your skill sense and toolbox and share the stories of fellow network engineers .

Speaker 2 0:40

Welcome to the Art of Network Engineering . I am Tim Bertino , and we have a bit of a Cables to Clouds co-host takeover in this one this week . I am joined by Tim McConaughey and Chris Miles . Tim , what's going on ?

Speaker 3 0:55

Not much , man , I'm just invading your podcast . We weren't having enough fun over at our podcast . We figured we needed to come over here and thrash this one as well . Tim is saying we don't have any fun over at our podcast it's all straight I hope that doesn't come across .

Speaker 3 1:17

It's very straight-placed . It's been good man . I have a new toy , which is I've got a bunch of new flashcards . It's about 200 flashcards . I'm working my way through Kanji Now . I'm well on my way to learning Japanese still . So that is my free time , as fun as it sounds .

Speaker 2 1:37

So how do you , now that we're post the trip , how do you feel , like you did when you were there ?

Speaker 3 1:42

I got to say I was really anxious and it went fine , like I don't know how else to say it . It really went fine . There was definitely some times that I got into some more interesting conversations that I didn't expect that I was going to have . You know , we got stuck in Osaka . I was sitting , we took the opportunity to do our laundry and while we're sitting there waiting on the machine to open up , this was in a hotel . You know , I started talking to somebody who was there and they were there on vacation and they were Japanese and they were there for Oban and we had a really good conversation . I was surprised , so I by no means fluent . However , I was more fluent than I expected I would be . So it's coming along .

Speaker 4 2:24

I'm sure people appreciate that you're making the effort right .

Speaker 3 2:27

Oh no , Everybody's really nice . They were really really nice in Japan , yeah .

Speaker 2 2:31

So what's new with you ?

Speaker 4 2:32

Chris , yeah , not much man . I've had a very busy work week , man , and I'm pretty drained and it's Friday here at the timer recording and after work I think we're going to go play some softball and drink some beer . So I'm , I'm , I have a very simple man evening scheduled for tonight . I'm very happy about that .

Speaker 3 2:53

At Aussie summer .

Speaker 2 2:54

Yeah , there you go . You need that . Yep , yeah , that's cool . Well , we do have a guest that has joined us for this episode . We have David Roos . David , welcome to the show and tell us a little bit about yourself .

Speaker 5 3:09

Yeah , Hi , Thanks for having me on guys . I really appreciate the opportunity . First of all , it's really cool to be a part of something , especially in the networking community . I just you know I'm a late to the game a little bit , but I'm trying to work my way up there and you know , start making those connections and stuff like that . Yeah , I'm just happy to be here .

Speaker 2 3:26

So networking is a very broad term . What are some of the things that get you excited about network infrastructure ?

Speaker 5 3:34

Routers and switches . Nothing wrong with that ? No , no , originally I wanted to go into video game design back when I was very young and naive and thinking it would be just really cool and really easy . Right , and my parents like , well , it's a very niche field , yeah . But you know , whatever you want to do as long as you're happy , but how about you get into it ? First , you know , maybe get a help desk job , get your security plus you know net plus something around there , something in the basics to get you a job , get you a foot in the door working on you know computers and stuff like that , and then kind of see where you want to go from there . And then so I did that . I actually my parents are retired military , so we were living near a base at the time , fort Leonard , missouri , very small town of about 3000 people . So got a job on base there as the , as a contractor out there working at a help desk .

Speaker 5 4:20

While I was there , one of my co-workers suggested that I go for my CCNA , just out of boo . I'm like what's that ? That sounds like something , because I mean , I was still new to the field . I didn't know what any of the exams or tests or certifications were , or even the general field . So , yeah sure , I bought a book and , you know , started working through it .

Speaker 5 4:38

About six months later I took the test past , got my CCNA and about the time some of the network guys on our team were leaving , so I kind of got shifted over to that , since I just got my CCNA , which was cool , and then I , you know , over the years I kind of migrated into a cyber territory , which it was an upgrading job , but not necessarily what I wanted to do and was passionate about . So I continued studying for Cisco certs and got my CCMP applied for a networking job there and got it , stayed there for a couple of years and then eventually moved to Tennessee at Fort Campbell as a networking job there , Did that for about three years and then finally last year I'm down here working at a knock in Texas and currently pursuing my CCIE .

Speaker 2 5:17

I want to step back there for a second you mentioned at least I thought I heard you say that was it your parents that mentioned maybe starting out with a security plus or network plus . So did they have an IT background ?

Speaker 5 5:29

No , no , they , they didn't . But but they knew that video game design was . I don't know , maybe they thought video game design was more like you know how people stream and play video games and you know , make millions of dollars . And someone's like what , oh , I can't , I can't , I make that money . You know , it was one of those things where it wasn't . I guess it wasn't really seen or talked about so there wasn't really a market for it .

Speaker 5 5:51

Maybe in back when I was , you know , going for it , I don't know , I didn't really look into it , but they're like it's your IT working on , you know there's . There's some jobs open here at the base and the minimum requirement was a security plus . So I was working at McDonald's at the time , studied , I had my flashcards up on the monitor , handed out burgers to people . Yeah , I just kind of trying to get my security plus . You know , got that , got my foot in the door and that's where it all started . And then eventually I fell in love with , you know , cisco and getting my CCNA and networking , and it was just that's where we're at now .

Speaker 2 6:18

And you said you work in a network operation center . Now I don't have any experience directly working in a knock . Can you kind of give me some of the what's some of the day to day like ? What are some of the challenges ? What do you maybe like and don't like about it ?

Speaker 5 6:34

I will say it's a . It comes with the military clearance , so I can't talk too much about it . Unfortunately , Fair enough . But I can give you , you know , the day to day operations . It's 24 hours , you know , supporting you know , all over the world , obviously .

Speaker 5 6:47

So whenever someone's awake somewhere else where we're 24 hour help desk basically we're tier two , networking , troubleshooting . The main thing I like about it , I mean , it is the people . You know sometimes you work with a bunch of people that you really like and you know , sometimes you don't get that opportunity , unfortunately . But I have a good group of people that I work with and I work the evening shifts so it gives me a lot of time to study because there's not as many calls coming through , not as many tickets to work on , but the flip side of that , not a lot of people are there . So when a major call comes in , you're waking people up in the middle of the night going , hey , something's down , and you know those are the calls you don't want to make but you have to . But it's really good . It's starting to help me get pregnant .

Speaker 5 7:26

I've never worked on the higher level stuff . You know the routing and , like the BGPs and the OSPFs and the EIDROPM Before , I was only tier one , even though I had a CCNA and CCMP . The level of job requirement was we didn't require CCNA , you know , I was only like I said , it only required a security plus , but I was in a networking role and that limited my ability .

Speaker 5 7:46

You know , spanning tree works automatically , so I can't do anything with that and that's you know I was basically shutting off ports and turning them back on again , kind of thing for port security . So this was definitely an upgrade to doing more things with my certification and my knowledge , which I like . I like the challenge .

Speaker 3 8:01

Yeah , one thing I noticed is I used to be a military contractor as well . In a knock I worked for the on the Navy Marine Corps Internet , and that's what you said about the kind of level of control that they give you at certain levels . It's very true . The military is very good about that .

Speaker 5 8:20

Separation of duties . They're very good about it .

Speaker 3 8:22

Yeah , and what that means , of course , is just what you said . If you are a level one like , you're not going to get the work experience that you need to , you know you're not going to be able to do changes , you're not going to be able to make routing changes , roll config changes and stuff like that . So that's a hard one to break through . So I'm glad you were able to get up to , I guess , to tier two now .

Speaker 5 8:44

Yeah , and actually it might be even tier three here , maybe the next year or so We'll see , depending on what jobs are starting to open up . But it was . It was really hard also because when I got my CCNA , when I first started going for my CCNA , I saw that there was a CCIE . And when I saw that there was a CCIE and the level of that it was , I knew right then and there I wanted to get it . It just it was a matter of time when I it went for it , you know . So here we are now .

Speaker 2 9:09

I did see on your Twitter or X , whatever people call it these days profile .

Speaker 3 9:15

It's Twitter .

Speaker 2 9:16

Thank you . Thank you , Tim . You're a self-proclaimed EIGRP enthusiast . Do you want to explain what you like about EIGRP ?

Speaker 5 9:26

That one's hard , I guess . Just to me it would just seem like a more fluid protocol than OSPF , and I know there's going to be so many comments . I'm fully aware that there is a place for each of the routing protocols in all kinds of networks . I fully get that . But I will recommend EIGRP every time , no matter what the problem is . I don't know , maybe I just understand it better . Maybe the name sounds cool . It could be accumulation of things .

CCIE Exam and Career Aspirations

Speaker 5 9:54

I got to meet a couple of the authors at the Cisco Live-In . I actually it should be pinned on my profile , I think I have a picture standing .

Speaker 2 10:01

I was just going to bring it up .

Speaker 3 10:04

Donnie right , you met Donnie Donnie and Peter Yep . Gotcha .

Speaker 2 10:08

I was going to say you're so much of an enthusiast that you printed off the RFC to have them sign it .

Speaker 5 10:16

And they did . They were gracious enough to sign it . I was really appreciative of it and it's funny because people are like why'd you get a sign ? How much is it going to be worth ? I'm like nothing , it's $0 . Like it's for me , it's not for anybody else , it's not worth something to other people . But when you get people that you look up to and you aspire to to be like , especially a knowledge , like those guys have knowledge that I came and found them at this point . So I'm just trying to work my way up and be among the crowd . Yeah .

Speaker 4 10:44

I don't know how many other vendors are actually implementing that RFC , but it's good that it exists , right ? So yeah , I have a quick question . So , as you seem to me I honestly don't know how old you are , but you seem to me like a younger man working in a network operation center . And I am no longer a younger man , but I was once in that position and I'll say I don't mean to take this directly to a very deep and kind of , you know , culture war question , but something I experienced a lot when I was working in a knock . You know , I was pretty young .

Speaker 4 11:21

There's a lot of lifers there , A lot of people that have been there for a very , very long time , and some of them have accolades that have gotten to them them to the point where they deserve the new , the position , the titles that they have . Some of them have gotten it just purely out of 10 year without , you know , like a lot of performance related to it . And as someone like you that just kind of got into it working in a knock , and now you're going for your CCI or CCI , sorry , I remember when I went through that pathway it was more like I wanted people to trust me . I wanted people to be able to give me the responsibility that I felt like I could handle . Is that something that you kind of align with as well ?

Speaker 5 12:03

on the military side , yes , on probably a couple of those points . Like I said , I've always worked at the lower tiers , so I didn't have much access , I didn't have much control , I didn't have much say , even though I felt like I knew things . It was all theoretical knowledge , there was no hands on , I couldn't prove that I knew it and it's really hard to you know when you don't have stuff , tools like CML or whatever . You can't just say , well , look , this is what it's the , yeah , gerp , this is what it's doing specifically . And you have to convince people that's what it's doing , especially ones who don't have , you know , their CCMP or CCIE . But yeah , I feel like if I get my CCIE , I will and going actually , now that you mentioned that , and going for that and telling my coworkers that I'm going for it and I've actually solved a couple of network problems at the knock that they were experiencing that I don't even know if they knew that they had .

Speaker 5 12:52

You know I've submitted , you know , change requests and I had to be very detailed . There was like four pages of this change request but it was for one change . But I had to be as detailed and thorough as possible as to what's going on and why it should be changed and I think they just started implementing it just now it is . So it was a lot of effort but for me it was worth it because it got people to see like , oh , you know , he kind of started does know time , and then more of those opportunities will come along and eventually I will get to it . But I know it understands going to take some time . For that reason there's people in there that are lifers , like you said it .

Speaker 5 14:21

Just that's the way the dice rolls . But if you let that bring you down and stop you , you're never going to go anywhere .

Speaker 4 14:26

Fortunately , yeah , exactly , yeah , I definitely remember that that . How good it felt that first moment whenever you get to take something from like your very intricate deep level studies and apply it in the real world . And someone's like , oh yeah , it's like it feels so good , so I'm glad you've already had that moment .

Speaker 5 14:45

I had to show how a yeah , I had to show how an EIGRP query packet traversed the network when a network went down and explained to non-technical people . So it was a challenge but I think I got it through , so it was cool .

Speaker 2 14:57

Yeah , that's one thing that I've found . So I am not going for the CCIE , but I did the CCMP Enterprise recently and that was one thing that I liked with the newer curriculum is that I didn't find that there was much in the Enterprise track that was not applicable , like most of the stuff that it covered I felt was very applicable to if there is such a thing typical Enterprise network engineer , and I loved those moments where I'd be studying something on the side , going toward that certification , and then roll into work the next day and hit something that I just covered and was able to get through it a lot more quickly because I was studying . So it was really good to see that level of applicability while studying .

Speaker 2 15:45

So let's kind of start talking about the CCIE . And I don't think I know for sure we didn't warn David that when we brought him on as he's studying for a CCIE , that he would be doing this interview with two CCIE's . So you can take that as a blessing or a curse , but I encourage you to take advantage of the time . So how so far ? How have you been approaching studying for the CCIE ?

Speaker 5 16:12

Yeah , so this is obviously the first time I've ever gone for something like this , so it's kind of new water for me , especially not having the you know they recommend you know five to ten years experience , depending on what you're doing Before you take the CCIE . And I have the ten years in in an office , but I don't have the ten years experience because , like I said , those first you know six years , it was later two or nothing kind of thing . So I didn't get that . So I'm really making up for lost time . Yeah , I'm , I'm trying to hit up all the CCIE's I can as far as knowledge . Sam's asking about the test Cisco . They don't worry about that . I'm not trying to get answers from from anyone , but I'm definitely .

Speaker 5 16:51

We can't help you there anyway , and from from priestess was yeah , well , yeah , yeah just trying to try to power my way through it and it's , like I said , going on two years now studying and just , and I feel like the longer time is due to the , the non experience , and I'm just , I'm just really just making up for whatever I can have you ?

Speaker 3 17:11

have you done the ? Have you done Barbara Oakley his course learning how to learn on course her ? It's free and I recommended to anyone studying anything big like the CCIE .

Speaker 5 17:22

Yeah , I saw it . Yeah , I saw you recommend it . Well , bill recommended , but you recommended it to bill and I saw it in the discord and I I did . I think I went through the first two weeks like watching the videos and stuff like that . So I'm hoping that will ignite some fires or turn on some light bulbs that weren't previously there , kind of thing to kind of Because my I mean my study tactics are . I feel like they're all over . You know , I got no cards . I got a mind map online . I got the anky flash flash deck or whatever it's called , and I got my CML , which is pretty much my bread and butter right now . That's . That's how I'm Making it through yeah , it's .

Speaker 3 17:57

it's one thing that that that specific course teaches you is how to approach studying , which I which funny because when I took the CCIE , I myself did not ever know that course existed , and so what happened to me was I ended up face planning it accidentally into a lot of the lessons that I found it . So after I took the CCIE , I found that course and I took it and I was just like four head smack of your forehead , smack about like what the hell was this ? When I was actually , you know I figured it all out as I went , but like in that way that you know you find your way through a dark room with the lights off and you're like banging your knee on everything .

Speaker 5 18:37

and so I , ever since then , I just recommend it to everybody to understand the strategy of studying and the strategy , or the neuroscience , of how you actually learn something and I actually think that's the benefit of taking as long as I am studying for the test , because if I did it in like six to eight months , you know I wouldn't have known the extra resources . But going on to two and a half years of studying for this test you know , just last week I found about that , about that course from Tim . Now I have ample time to go for that course and still make up some study time . So I feel like Giving yourself some extra time to study will allow you to access more resources because you have that time yeah , totally , I think .

Speaker 4 19:13

I think , as a as a CCI candidate , the number one thing we should be asking you right now is why aren't you labbing ? What are you doing ? What are you doing recording a podcast ? You should be labbing , yeah , what are you ?

Speaker 5 19:23

doing ? Yeah , coincidentally enough , I did . I was working on BGP right before I joined you guys . Like I turned off my BGP lab and I will continue it once I get done with this podcast . Yeah , it's , we talked about it .

Speaker 4 19:35

for now , we talked about it on the CCI episode . We did with a one a while back . But I remember like this , when you , when you finally get the pass , like I realized like two days later how broken my brain was because I was like it was like a Sunday and like someone invited me to go out and like go out the brunch or something , and I was like I can't do that . I got a lab and I was like , oh shit , no , I don't have to do that anymore . Like I have free time now . It's crazy , but yeah , that's , I mean that's I will say I've been , I've been following you on Twitter for a while and I've noticed like You've , you've made so you even got married while you're studying for this thing . That's like I don't know how you , I don't know you fit in planning a wedding and doing all this crap . So Like , how are you managing time ? And you know you're kind of like the relationship and things like that , because I think that's very important yeah , very forgiving partner .

Speaker 5 20:25

That's how that's , that's the . That's the one sentence I can offer . Just make sure they're forgiving . No , the wedding was actually very small . We just had mom and dad on both sides come down and I think a brother

CCIE Studies and Challenges

Speaker 5 20:38

went to the botanical gardens locally here , got married , didn't have a big ceremony , it was just , I mean , we did under budget , under time and , you know , under everything . So we , it was very Quick and easy . Note no huge blowout . We did go to Hawaii for our honeymoon , so that was our big expenditure .

Speaker 5 20:55

But yeah , the , the , the commitment it takes away from your family , is definitely a lot and I'll repeat it again , I have never been through something like this and it's a lot . And I'm not done with it yet . It's already a lot . So you need to be sure to communicate this with your partner or your family . You know whoever you're you're always hanging out with or whoever you're always texting . They need to understand that there are gonna be some days and then , as it gets closer , there'll be no days of hanging out and doing stuff and fun stuff . I , you know , I said , you know partners head down . I was like look , this is gonna be a big undertaking . It's not even required for my job . It's just a personal goal that I've always had and I need it . And it's not just a one and done . You can't just sit down two years ago and say , hey , I'm taking the CCI , it's gonna take this long , leave me alone for two years . You know you can't do that .

Speaker 5 21:40

You need to constantly communicate and say hey , you know , I'm still working on this , I'm still working on this . And actually it's funny you mentioned it , because I got brought up a couple weeks ago going it wasn't . It wasn't any kind of like bad conversation , anything , it was just that hey , like like where you got your studies , like I have no idea , like where you're at in your studies , and I thought about that and it's kind of impactful . I was like if you go for , like a master's degree , and somebody knows that you're going for a master's degree , they know what day you're going to graduate , they know what classes you're taking , you know they know all the things and the progress . They can see the progress progression , the progress bar for that .

Speaker 4 22:13

It's a linear timeline .

Speaker 5 22:14

Yeah , no idea . Yeah , exactly , it's a linear timeline .

Speaker 5 22:17

And he had no idea how many subjects I had to study , what subjects I had to study , how fluent I was in these subjects . So what I did was I ended up printing out the blueprint I actually got one right here and I highlighted in green , yellow and red the subjects I was really good at kind of working on and don't know anything about . So he could see my linear progress of what I was working on , because that's a visual for him and I felt that that was very important to see the progress , because if all you're saying is I'm studying , I'm studying , I'm studying , there's no , you can't make a connection of where you're at in this process .

Speaker 2 22:47

Yeah , and it's very hard . Well , I think the fact that he's been that interested and that invested goes to show that I think you picked the right partner . Yeah , I'll tell you that much . Yeah .

Speaker 5 22:57

Yeah , I think it was a stipulation . I was like , if you want to get married , just know this test is coming . So it's a temporary sacrifice for , hopefully , a future setting us up for our future . Like I said , it's not required for my job , it's only required for a CCNA . But the job opportunities that would potentially open up and traveling around the world , kind of stuff , that's future . That's future me , looking out for present me , looking out for future me , yeah .

Speaker 2 23:23

Would , you say you said it's not required for your job , but are you , do you see anybody that you work with that has a CCIE , is working toward it or anything like that ? Because I had asked that question it might have been in our CCIE episode to Chris and Chris , if I remember right . I don't remember that in your work environment at the time that there were many CCIEs . It was just something that you were going after and was going to be a level up for you .

Speaker 4 23:53

Yeah , my environment it was like that yeah . It was like one or two maybe within my current organization . Oddly enough , while I was in the middle of studying I changed careers to a VAR where the CCIE was a dime a dozen , so I was not special at all by the time I actually got it .

Speaker 4 24:11

But yeah , it was like I said , my motivator was that responsibility and I think , David , I think eventually you will get that and you will once you have that next to your name . It's like people respect you but also people really want to stump you all the time . People really want to prove you wrong . For some reason there's a lot of stump the chump stuff that might happen in job interviews , so I hope you're ready for that . It'll be very fun .

Speaker 3 24:35

But , yeah , a lot of people out there that never passed it or gave up on it or whatever , or just have the wrong impression of what being a CCIE actually means , right , and so that's what they think that they have to stump the chump and that you're supposed to know everything because you're a CCIE .

Speaker 5 24:48

They'll find that obscure question on the middle of the internet that nobody has the answer to .

Speaker 5 24:53

It was funny . You mentioned that because when I went for this interview , like I said , only a CCNA was wired and they asked a spanning tree question and I think it was like what is spanning tree ? And my simple answer was it's a layer two loop prevention mechanism like its core function . That's what it was and that was my answer . Like that , you know , unless they wanted the deep dive of the timers and the port , you know things that I didn't think they wanted , that that's what it is . It's a layer two loop prevention and I was the only one who got it right . Like , out of all the candidates they said later when I got the job , they're like , you're the only one that got that question right . I'm like what ?

Speaker 2 25:24

That's like six chapters of the CCNA bug . We're talking about . So the reason I ask that question is I'm trying to find out do you have any sort of CCIE support system at work that you can bounce ideas off of questions , challenges , that kind of thing ? Or , from a work perspective , are you kind of on your own ?

Speaker 5 25:44

Yeah , unfortunately it's on my own scenario and , as Chris mentioned , some of the I'm not trying to talk bad on anybody To teach their own . Nobody has to go for CCIE . You know you get your CCNA and some people are just happy with the CCNA and that is totally fine . But that's what I work with and I don't have that knowledge I can bounce off of and say oh hey , I'm been having this problem on this protocol and you know they've never heard of it because that's on a CCIE topic and it's not CCNA . But I have found a little loophole .

Speaker 5 26:12

A couple of one of my coworkers I have convinced , and by convinced I said you're going to do this for me . I was like I'm going to like learn some topics and every day or once a week I'm going to present this topic to you and try to teach you this topic , maybe at a higher level , nothing too specific , and I need you to see if you can understand it . And if I can do that one , you know they would learn as well on some of the topics . They might not absorb or grasp everything , that's fine . I just want to be able to like whiteboard it and say , well , okay , when this goes , this neighborhood goes down . This is the sequence of events that happens and these are kind of the packets of protocols exchange , so it gives me a deeper level understanding . So even though there's not a CCIE to bounce stuff off of , I can still squeeze it in a little bit .

Speaker 3 26:54

Teaching is a great way to learn , man . You never find your gaps faster than when you're trying to teach something to somebody else and they ask that question and you're like , oh shit , I didn't think about that .

Speaker 5 27:05

Yeah , that's kind of what I'm hoping for and eventually I would like to teach content , you know , maybe a CCIE or two down the road . Once I got a couple under the belt , I would eventually like to start creating some content , and just geared towards CCIE studies , because you know it's there's some content out there but it's kind of few and far between . I've seen some good courses but I think I have like six different subscriptions right now going on just to get all the content that I'm trying to get .

Speaker 4 27:29

Oh , dude , come over to Cloud and Cyber Security . Once I get it , you can get six figures in six months bro .

Speaker 3 27:36

Yeah , six weeks , yeah , yeah 14 certifications in two weeks .

Speaker 5 27:41

Yeah , yeah , no , no , nothing like that .

Speaker 4 27:45

That's funny . So you even , you're even projecting . Now you're saying , once you got a couple under your belt , so you already , you've already I mean obviously you're your curriculum and your study patterns , for what you do is already very , very robust , very thought out and far more advanced than some of us . I will say that . So you and you say you're potentially going to go for another one , is you ? You feel like you want to keep doing this ?

Speaker 5 28:11

I do , I think I'm going to . I didn't realize this whole totally . I'm going to be a lifelong learner , Um , and it feels to me it feels good to be a lifelong learner , because I mean technology . Man , you stop , you're , you're gone , you know you start stopping and it's , it's out .

Speaker 5 28:25

Oh , so yeah , hopefully maybe two , three more . Cci East is depending on where , where my life takes me . Uh , I'm looking to retire for at a , you know , here in about 15 years , you know , at least from the first job , and then hopefully pick up a second job . You know the goal is to either work at Cisco or Disney Don't mean to name drop , but those are my BS be an engineer , a network engineer , one of those two companies . Those would probably be a I'm speaking into existence right now .

Speaker 4 28:48

I had . I had aspirations . So I I don't know if I've even mentioned this on either podcast before , but , um , I used to be a very , very big well , I still am a very big Disney parks fan . So I used to go like four to five times a year , um and uh , to Disney world and and Disneyland and things like that and like , if you know , the , there's a , there's a imagineer , that's the , the , the , basically the kind of the person that's responsible for designing rides and all the like , innovation and stuff at , at , uh , at the theme parks . I remember I was like I'm going to be a network imagineer , that's , that's what I'm going to do .

Speaker 3 29:53

But then I've also learned like being .

Speaker 4 29:56

If I work there , I'd probably end up hating it . So I don't know if I want to go that far , but uh , yeah , but uh , I hope that comes . I hope that comes to fruition for you for sure .

Speaker 5 30:05

Yeah , and you know it could . It could turn out terrible . I may not like you to those jobs , you know . You just never know . I have a goal and if it doesn't work out the way I want , I just change course . I I figured out .

Speaker 3 30:15

I mean , I , I worked at Cisco for

Preparing for the CCIE Exam

Speaker 3 30:18

six years and , uh , you know , it's a good company , um , so I wouldn't say anything bad about it . Um , like all companies , that has , you know , big company problems , but just , I mean , it was a good , it was a good place to work . I , I enjoyed it .

Speaker 5 30:31

Yeah , I feel like , as long as I'm being challenged , uh , and I'm able to grow within the company , um , in the direction that I feel is best for me , then then I feel like it would , it would work out , regardless of the company .

Speaker 2 30:43

So you said you've been studying for the CCIE for a little bit and you've got a . It sounds like you've got a date picked out . Uh , you're , you're , uh , you see the light at the end of the tunnel . So what are you doing ? What's your schedule ? Look like to to make sure you meet that date .

Speaker 5 30:58

Yeah , um , hopefully , I'm taking it at Cisco live , uh , in the U S at 2024 , which is the first week of April , last week of May somewhere around there . Um , I've already got the flight in the hotel booked . Uh , I just need to wait for the um the testing to open up to , to pay for the test . So that that's kind of where I'm at on that . Um , I will . I'm . I'm beating the clock here .

Speaker 5 31:17

I'm trying to cover all of the exam topics by the end of this year or finish all the exam topics by the end of this year , cause I kind of got started late , um , with the , the SDA and the SD WAN stuff , uh , and , like Tim said , or , uh , I got married and then , uh , you know , went on vacation , so it wasn't all studying this year . So I definitely , I definitely had some breaks , um , but but I'm trying to , I'm on track to finish the blueprint by the end of this year and then for the next five , six months until my test , um , I , it's just all review . It should all just be review .

Speaker 3 31:46

How are you doing the uh SDN SDA lab ?

Speaker 5 31:49

Uh , it hurts my head and my heart A lot . Um , I I actually just finished a video course on CBT nuggets on the SDA , like theory , so it was like all the most of the topics were mentioned in the blueprint in in the course . I have zero hands on for for SD , wan and SDA at the moment . Um , so I will be looking probably hitting up the discords and looking for rack rentals and stuff like that to what I can get . Yeah .

Speaker 3 32:15

Yeah , I think Cisco does rack rentals for this the stuff . I'm not sure if it's up to date with the new 1.1 blueprint , but yeah , I would . Before you sit the exam , I highly highly recommend getting your hands on like actual , like you know rack time , if it all possible .

Speaker 5 32:30

That is definitely the goal and actually since , since I was a Cisco VIP community from for the for their community page this past year up until the end of this year , it came with a free exam voucher . So I'm actually using that . It expires in March of next year . I think I'm actually using that to take the SD-WAN concentration test . That's kind of I don't want to , you know , devalue it by calling the throwaway test , but that will gauge my SD-WAN capabilities before my CCIE lab exam . So it was kind of like a blessing that I got , so hopefully it will help me out . You know see where my weak points were . So even if I fail the test you know it was a free voucher I at least get to see where my weak points are without having to spend , you know two grand on just going to the CCIE .

Speaker 3 33:12

Yeah , just be aware that the specialty exams do go a lot deeper into the topic than you can probably expect from the actual , so don't read too much into it . I guess is what I'm saying . Use it to gauge your readiness , but don't read too far into it .

Speaker 5 33:29

If you have problems like with some of the poor band stuff . I'm going to try to match up the blueprints of the concentration and then what's in the CCIE , because if I fail , at least give me the domain percentages that . I can go off of , like you said , a rough estimate , not too deep .

Speaker 2 33:43

I wanted to ask how you were approaching doing labs , practicing labbing for the CCIE , because it came up from Erica , Tim and Chris and our CCIE episode that they had used those and I'm going to get the terminology wrong , but like the I&E labs or the I&E walkthroughs , that would give you the scenario for a lab . So how were you getting your lab scenarios to know what to build and what to practice ?

Speaker 5 34:10

That's right up there . I do have a subscription to I&E as well . Actually I had it a while ago when they had the downloadable workbook , so I think I have that downloaded somewhere to possibly practice on . What I've been doing is just going through the blueprint topics , so at least everything that's actually listed in the blueprint topics I'm going through . Like EIGRP , they have summary route with leak map . I'm making sure that I'm specifically practicing a summary route with a leak map and then just kind of adding stuff in there .

Speaker 5 34:40

It's not asking about changing the timers or anything , but maybe I'll change a timer in the neighbors and I think I have three major routing labs one for BGP , eigrp and OSPF right now , and I have Big Layer 2.1 , and they're probably two to three pages each , but it incorporates more of the technologies like maybe my EIGRP lab will have UDP SLA involved with it and maybe my OSPF lab will have TCP SLA with IP source guard kind of thing .

Speaker 5 35:06

So I'm sprinkling those other technologies that aren't specified with a routing protocol into my routing protocol lab . So I'm just trying to use most of the features . I hit the question mark . I see all the list of features that OSPF offers under the global process . I'm like okay , what does this do ? What does this do ? Maybe I can lab on that guy and I'll write it into a Word document configure neighbors to this , but only use one command to do it kind of thing . And the way I write it I don't write configure OSPF with MD5 authentication or SHA authentication . I would say configure OSPF to provide the strongest authentication between peers . So it's not explicitly stated , so it gets my mind of saying okay , shoot .

Speaker 2 35:44

It makes you think through which one does it really mean ? Yeah , what is the ?

Speaker 5 35:48

strongest . So it's not specifically stated , so hopefully that will develop my critical thinking skills .

Speaker 2 35:53

I do want to ask about troubleshooting when it comes to labs and trying to figure out where and when things go wrong . So I'll start with Chris . Chris , when you were going for the CCIE and you were , I think you were collaborating with Tim and others in your journey . So how did you guys get together and put a lab topology together and somebody would break something and then other people would have to figure it out . Like , how did you practice troubleshooting when it came to the CCIE lab ?

Speaker 4 36:24

Yeah , good question . I think yes and no . I think there were people that did that . I don't know if Tim and I specifically did that . I remember Tim actually wrote an entire , or at least started writing some exam questions and gave topology and things like that .

Speaker 3 36:38

So good on you .

Speaker 4 36:41

Tim , you did the whole thing . Yeah , I remember I went through that . So we definitely kind of helped each other with certain scenarios and things like that . I think the real thing that we probably collaborated on more often was just developing that rigorous framework for troubleshooting . Once CCIE is over well , it's already over Once it's fully out of my mind , I probably will forget every bit and protocol and nerd knob that I

CCIE Exam Experience and Troubleshooting Tips

Speaker 4 37:15

learned along the way . One thing that I will take with me forever is the ability to troubleshoot . It made me probably a 10 times better troubleshooter just because just be able to draw correlations Troubleshooting you got to treat it like the elephant that you have to eat one bite at a time , right . You got to do small things to see what inferences you can make , what correlates to this , what correlates to that , and just being able to break it down in bite-sized pieces . So that was probably the biggest takeaway for me . I don't know about you , tim .

Speaker 3 37:48

Yeah , definitely the ability to troubleshoot . So the I&E workbook we would do a full . What we do is , on Sundays we would get together and there'd be three or four of us we would get on a I think it was Google Meet at that point that we were using and we would just get on . We'd all share our screens and we'd all work on the same lab for eight hour lab . Right , we'd all sit there , do the eight hour lab and then the next day so actually it was Saturday and Sunday , sorry . So Saturday we would do the lab . Sunday we would meet up and we would all just go through the lab like , hey , what did you get for this ? What did you do here ? Oh cool , I hadn't thought about doing that . Like , why did you do it that way ? Oh well , because the task said it should be done this way . I assumed that's what it had to be , and we just compare answers and talk our own ways through the labs . And that helped us understand like other perspectives as well which was undaliable . And I know that's going to be probably a little tougher for you , david , because you don't have a cohort , but that might be something I would suggest .

Speaker 3 38:52

Actually there's a lot of people out there that are in various stages of saying that they're studying for their CCIE . You have access to Twitter . You have . You know , we have even within the Art and Work , engineering , you know , discord . There are people who are studying for their CCIE . Don't do it . You don't have to do it alone . There's no , there's a reason that you should do it alone . I would not have gotten my CCIE if I hadn't had the cohort of people that I had , because I was , I was just studying on my own .

Speaker 3 39:17

I was doing basically what you were doing , and once you get together with other people and you have a plan of attack and you work together , it's just like a whole different ballgame . It really is .

Speaker 5 39:26

Absolutely , I do use the Discord . I'm active in a couple of communities . I think I have like two or three that I'm really active in . In one of them I'll every Friday since I work at the 24-hour knock . My shift is , you know , sunday to Thursday . So on Friday in the morning after the gym I'll go into the video chat and I'll share my screen and I'll just . I'll have my CML up on half the screen and my lab that I created on the other side of the screen and that's basically what I do .

Speaker 5 39:52

But as far as troubleshooting , I found the most effective way to troubleshoot hands down is to create a lab , do a whole bunch of stuff to it and then two weeks later come back to it without realizing anything you've done . I've spent hours troubleshooting something that I implemented two weeks ago that I just forgot about in a CML topology because , just because I was playing with a setting for something , it would advertise the route weird , or it would just not form a BGP connection or this and that , and it's because I configured any cast and it was hitting this IP first instead of the other neighbor's IP in two hours . So you know , just straight up troubleshooting my own equipment If there was any CCIE lab out there worth taking . It'd be your lab from four years ago that you forgot about .

Speaker 2 40:31

Yeah , it's kind of drawn parallels to the times where people will write blog posts like years ago and then they'll be trying to figure something out and they're googling stuff and they end up going back to their own posts that they did a while back .

Speaker 5 40:44

Right , I figured this out once before .

Speaker 3 40:47

I go back and look at my old Python code all the time . Every time I'm trying to remember how to do something . What the hell's a class do again ?

Speaker 5 40:53

Oh , okay , yeah , I filled up those two years ago . Like Chris said , as soon as you take that CCIE , get rid of the knowledge that you just lose it all .

Speaker 3 41:01

Well , you just can't hold it forever , right it's like juggling , juggling balls , man , you can't keep that in your head forever . Exactly .

Speaker 2 41:07

So let's fast forward to you get your CCIE . What is your post CCIE ? What's your ideal job role ? I know you've mentioned working at Cisco , working at Disney , but if you had to set your sights on a specific role , what would

Approaching CCIE and Support System

Speaker 2 41:24

that be ?

Speaker 5 41:25

Honestly , probably just tier three networking and troubleshooting the guys that the problem comes to when nobody else can figure it out . I feel like it would definitely be a challenge . I figured I'd like to think that I'm smart enough to hopefully help out where I can . Like I said , I'm already at tier two and trying to improve everything .

Speaker 5 41:42

I got my whole goal in any job I ever go to is to leave the network better than when I found it . Clear out logs , improve configurations , this and that . That's my personal goal is to just make things better because it makes things easier on me and the team . When the network doesn't go down every night at two o'clock in the morning or whatever , because something was misconfigured , you fix that configuration . It's like oh , we don't have to come in two o'clock in the morning anymore . How about that ? So , honestly , any role where I can and , yes , cisco and Disney , they're definitely just the name drops because they're the tier companies but , honestly , anywhere that I can just be an effective network troubleshooter , slash implementer or whatever . I'm not too fond of the design . If somebody says , well , hey , what was quee , implement this technology here , I'm like I don't know . That's the design people , that's what they're there for . You tell me what I need to configure and I will . I got you , I'm the configuring guy , so definitely hands on .

Speaker 2 42:36

It does take all kinds because , like you said , not everybody wants to do the high level design and figure out all the requirements and that kind of thing . Conversely , not everybody wants to get in and do the implementation and troubleshooting that you really thrive on all the time . So it's good that there's people out there that can compliment each other for sure .

Speaker 5 42:58

Absolutely . People are like oh , go into cyber or go into this career . It's exploding right now . Great , I don't like it , that's not for me .

Speaker 2 43:07

Let those guys over there handle that .

Speaker 5 43:09

Yeah , I am perfectly fine in my networking bubble and I'm probably good here for a while .

Speaker 2 43:14

Something I do want to circle back on is you brought it up a little bit ago , but we also talked about it before we started recording that you said was very important to you when it comes to approaching the CCIE . You talked about how much you stressed that it was important to talk to your support system and make sure that they know what's going on . Can you jump into that just a little bit more , maybe , and go through how you approach that specifically and maybe how you recommend people approach that ? Because , like we've said , the CCIE is a whole different animal and I understand that only because I hear everybody else say that . But it's not like doing the , not to discredit these , but it's not like doing the CCNA , the Security Plus , even the CCMP . It takes a different type of time commitment and effort commitment . So how did you specifically approach that ?

Speaker 5 44:11

Yeah , it was like I said . It was new for me , so what I thought I was communicating , I just kind of hoped it was good enough . It definitely helps to have a partner who is understanding of your dreams and goals and aspirations . You got to support each other like that , because if you don't , then the CCIE is 10 times harder , because if you don't have that support system , it's just like , look , you're going to have to take care of the kids for this weekend or whatever , while I'm sitting eight hours in a lab dungeon studying and trying to work out this out with my cohorts or whatever , date nights are going to be slowing down or stopping , like not going to the movies as often . In fact , here in January I play some games every now and then call of duty and stuff but come January , until I get my tests taken , I'm buckling down . I'm uninstalling all my games on my computer , because that's just my personality If it's there , I'm going to want to play it .

Speaker 5 45:04

So I had to eliminate a lot of distractions . The one thing that helped me was moving to a new state where I didn't have friends , so I just didn't make any new ones and nobody has invited me to anything , so I don't have to go anywhere , and that definitely helps . But if you have a community that you're constantly hanging around or texting or whatever , it does make it a little bit more difficult to give that across to somebody who has never even heard of a CCIE Like CCIE , that's four letters that don't mean anything to me . Oh well , it entails a lot of studying . Some people just don't understand why you have to study so much , and they never will , and that's okay . That's not what they know . There's a lot of things I don't know . That's how it is , so you just have to do your best to explain it as best you can . Like I said , I came up with the highlighting rules , like look , this is where I stand and this is how far I need to go . Please , let's pray that we pass this on the first time .

Speaker 2 45:56

So I hear people explain their CCIE journeys and how they prepare and I just see you know a lot of stress and a lot of effort and that kind of thing . So how do you approach how you're going to sustain through that ? How do you approach taking breaks and making sure that you make time for you and your partner and other people in your life ? How does that work for you ?

Speaker 5 46:21

Taking breaks . What's that ?

Speaker 2 46:23

Okay , that's an answer .

Speaker 5 46:24

No , I do make time when I can . I do work the night shift . So you know he's working during the day . I get home at 11 o'clock at night , but 11 to 1130 , it's you know . I usually don't come home and lab at that late at night I'm usually labbing Again . It kind of works out in my favor . I'm working the night shift at a knock , which is not as busy during the day , so it provides me time to study , you know , and hone in on my skills as well . As I'm not working during the day , I don't go into the afternoon but my partner's not at home . That gives me time to lab at the house . So it's kind of more of an ideal situation and it's definitely helped me out tremendously . If we had the same schedule and you know we both worked at the same time and home at the same time I don't know if that study schedule would be different . It would definitely be a different conversation of like hey , you can't , no plugging like like .

Speaker 5 47:11

I can't be . I can't be bothered , you know , from these , from these times , and that may be a little bit harder , you know , if you're six feet away from each other in the other room , kind of thing . So I feel like the opportunity was just I'm going for it now because it's probably the best setup I'm having at the moment of my life . So I feel like it's it's going to be in my favor . But I realize that people don't have that opportunity all the time .

Speaker 2 47:30

So well , but but you have something that you know is going to work for you . You have a situation in your life where it just seems like it's going to fit , and you're taking advantage of it . So that makes a ton of sense .

Speaker 5 47:41

Every , every little bit counts .

Speaker 2 47:42

So , as we go to kind of try to round this out , david , is there anything that we haven't discussed about your journey or about any tips you may have for anybody preparing for the CCIE that you wanted to cover ?

Speaker 5 47:55

Just know that there is huge support system out there , like , like Tim mentioned , not may not be at your work , it may not be you know your neighbors across the street but but there's definitely some online communities that have been tremendously helpful from the Cisco online community . That was another thing that I didn't touch up on . I'm constantly in the Cisco online community on their forums because that also hones my skills as a network troubleshooter .

Speaker 5 48:20

Network troubleshooter , because some people come in with a problem and I will try my best to you know answer it I mean , yesterday I did a BGP lab and I went through 13 steps of the of the past selection algorithm to get to the answer and I I pasted all that work into . It was almost like a blog post at that point . You know , I passed all that work into the forum . So helping other people is a huge , huge way to hone your skills and , you know , join the communities like I'm mainly in discord . I'm sure there's other communities and forums out there of lots of you know , cci candidates just making their way through life , just trying to study and lab , you know on the weekends , four hours at a time . So just know you're not alone and there's people out there , whether you , you know , you you want to know that or not .

Speaker 5 49:01

Just they're out there and most of them are willing to help . I haven't met too many people who turn you away in those communities .

Speaker 2 49:07

And the aspect of asking and getting help . But I think there's also that aspect that Tim and Chris have mentioned of accountability is you have people that are in it with you that can keep you going , you can keep them going , and if everybody's staying on a schedule , then you know everybody's moving up , it's similar time , so that makes a lot of sense . Tim and Chris , you guys got any final thoughts for this one ?

Speaker 4 49:35

Yeah , sorry , no , it's been a fun conversation . You know , obviously it's a everyone has a different journey , but there's there's correlations . We , we all get to draw with each other , even if you're taking the CCI or not . So , yeah , it's been a fun conversation and and best of luck to you , david , hope to see you post the digit soon .

Speaker 5 49:53

Yeah thank you .

Speaker 3 49:54

Yeah , same here . It's been good having a conversation . It's always interesting to see where people are , you know , on the journey to get the CCI , and kind of strategy they're taking , how they're finding that journey . So , yeah , I definitely wish you the best of luck and , yeah , same same hope to see that it's just soon .

Speaker 5 50:12

Awesome . Yeah , thanks for all the questions . Thanks for the invite , guys . I appreciate it .

Speaker 2 50:16

And David , where and how can people find you to continue the conversation ?

Speaker 5 50:21

Yeah , I mainly post my my it and and labbing stuff and journey on my Twitter . Kangaroos it's just a fun name that got picked out , that's right and then I post on Instagram , but that was that's more my workout stuff . So I would say Twitter is probably where my it stuff goes and just post and silly random labs and stuff and quirks that I find amusing , so hopefully other people do too .

Speaker 2 50:47

Awesome . Well , thank you for taking the time with us , david . Yeah , like Tim and Chris said earlier , I guess you better get back to lab , and now I can't believe you took a break for this long to join us .

Speaker 2 50:57

Everybody out there . Thank you for joining for another episode of the Art of Network Engineering . You can catch us on the socials at Art of Net Eng , at Cables to Clouds Art of Network Engineering dot com . Cables to Clouds dot com . Find us , we are out there . This has been another episode of the Art of Network Engineering . Take care .

Speaker 1 51:18

Hey everyone , this is AJ . If you like what you heard today , then make sure you subscribe to our podcast and your favorite pod catcher . Smash that bell icon to get notified of all of our future episodes . Also follow us on Twitter and Instagram . We are at Art of Net Eng . That's art of NET . You can also find us on the web at Art of Network Engineering dot com , where we post all of our show notes . You can read blog articles from the co hosts and guests and also a lot more news and info from the networking world . Thanks for listening .