[01:00:00:11 - 01:00:02:02]
andy
 This is the art of network engineering,

[01:00:03:07 - 01:00:13:12]
andy
 where technology meets the human side of IT. Whether you're scaling networks, solving problems, or shaping your career, we've got the insights, stories, and tips to keep you ahead in the ever-evolving world of networking.

[01:00:13:12 - 01:00:21:15]
Andy
 Welcome to the Art of Network Engineering podcast. My name is Andy Lapteff and we are in, where are we? I want to say Silicon Valley, but is that true?

[01:00:21:15 - 01:00:22:07]
Jason
 San Jose,

[01:00:22:07 - 01:00:23:01]
Andy
 San Jose.

[01:00:23:01 - 01:00:23:14]
Andy
 Yep.

[01:00:23:14 - 01:00:28:03]
Andy
 We have Jason Gintert here. Jason, where are we? Like, why are we together in person? What's happening?

[01:00:28:03 - 01:00:29:21]
Jason
 doing great. Thanks for having me on.

[01:00:29:21 - 01:00:30:18]
Jason
 We are together

[01:00:30:18 - 01:00:32:06]
Jason
 in person for NFD

[01:00:32:06 - 01:00:35:07]
Jason
 40, which is an action-packed networking field day

[01:00:35:07 - 01:00:36:14]
Jason
 here in San Jose.

[01:00:36:14 - 01:00:40:21]
Jason
 That from Nokia.

[01:00:40:21 - 01:00:45:04]
Andy
 It's going to be amazing. I mean, I'm not-- I'm totally objective. It's going to be really

[01:00:45:04 - 01:00:46:22]
Jason
 I'm pretty pumped. I'm pretty pumped.

[01:00:46:22 - 01:00:53:07]
Andy
 So yes, we are here for Networking Field Day 40. And I thought, let me bring the gear. We'll shoot some stuff in person.

[01:00:53:07 - 01:00:57:16]
Andy
 Networking Field Day is, in tech field day, the whole organization. They're all about bringing people together.

[01:00:57:16 - 01:00:58:05]
Andy
 Delegates,

[01:00:59:08 - 01:01:04:19]
Andy
 what do they call it? Influencers, right? People who are known in the community who can communicate. And they cover these vendors and then they write stuff.

[01:01:04:19 - 01:01:05:07]
Andy
 You,

[01:01:05:07 - 01:01:08:23]
Andy
 sir, are also founder, co-founder, presidente

[01:01:08:23 - 01:01:10:00]
Andy
 of the US

[01:01:10:00 - 01:01:13:22]
Andy
 I like to tie in between where we are and what you do

[01:01:13:22 - 01:01:14:14]
Andy
 and kind of

[01:01:14:14 - 01:01:18:18]
Andy
 I like to do with the show as well as like, we need community.

[01:01:18:18 - 01:01:20:18]
Jason
 Yes, we do.

[01:01:20:18 - 01:01:26:21]
Andy
 sure long time listeners are so sick of hearing me talk about, it was a lonely journey

[01:01:26:21 - 01:01:38:23]
Andy
 into networking and a leap of faith between me, my parents and my girlfriend, who's now my wife. They were the only people who were like, yeah, you should try that. Everybody else in my life was like, what, what are you doing? This is dumb. Like stop it. So

[01:01:38:23 - 01:01:56:22]
Andy
 come into network engineering and been introduced to this community of people who help each other, hold each other up, pat each other on the back when they fail an exam, like jump in a study group. I mean, there's just so much benefit to being together and having a community. And I guess because the contrast of I didn't,

[01:01:56:22 - 01:02:02:02]
Andy
 I just want to tell everybody like, look at all these communities. So tell us about the USNUA and let's get into what we want to chat about.

[01:02:07:11 - 01:02:06:21]
Jason
 It is

[01:02:06:21 - 01:02:07:08]
Jason
 group

[01:02:07:08 - 01:02:09:10]
Jason
 we get network engineers together

[01:02:09:10 - 01:02:12:00]
Jason
 we talk about the challenges of the day.

[01:02:12:00 - 01:02:14:21]
Jason
 talk about new, cool technologies we're working with.

[01:02:14:21 - 01:02:19:19]
Jason
 happens in the form of usually a happy hour event. And obviously, you've

[01:02:19:19 - 01:02:21:12]
Jason
 run a few of these in Pennsylvania

[01:02:21:12 - 01:02:36:06]
Andy
 I love them. I love the in-person nature. So like, again, my, my context is the podcast. It's a virtual community, right? Like we all kind of met online during COVID and started the podcast and then the discord server came out of that. And it's,

[01:02:36:06 - 01:02:40:01]
Andy
 when I get to be in person physically with people, there's just such a different,

[01:02:40:01 - 01:02:43:11]
Andy
 I don't know what it is. I think that we are supposed to be together,

[01:02:45:03 - 01:02:45:10]
Jason
 There's something to that.

[01:02:45:10 - 01:02:57:19]
Andy
 a very abnormal thing that has happened, I think. And I'm not trying to be old guy doom and gloom yelling at a cloud or whatever, but the less we are together, I think physically, the more that seems to do to us

[01:02:57:19 - 01:03:00:14]
Andy
 collectively, you know, we'll leave it there. So

[01:03:00:14 - 01:03:03:18]
Andy
 love the USNUA. I kind of forget, honestly,

[01:03:03:18 - 01:03:16:01]
Andy
 I think you were on early, like you were like on an early episode, I think, AJ grabbed you and brought you in. That's probably when I learned about you guys. I don't remember when PA NUG kicked off. You probably do. It was probably in your fancy

[01:03:16:01 - 01:03:17:02]
Jason
 But probably.

[01:03:17:02 - 01:03:19:02]
Andy
 that's, I think what

[01:03:19:02 - 01:03:24:11]
Andy
 pulled me in is you came on the show and I'm like, oh, wow, that sounds really cool. And then I got involved with PA. So

[01:03:24:11 - 01:03:26:23]
Andy
 why did you start USNUA? What precipitated this?

[01:03:26:23 - 01:03:30:10]
Jason
 started USNUA in Ohio. It started out as just ONUG,

[01:03:30:10 - 01:03:31:21]
Jason
 so Ohio Networking User Group.

[01:03:31:21 - 01:03:37:22]
Jason
 And the reason we started it because we saw all of these other practices, whether it's

[01:03:37:22 - 01:03:56:04]
Jason
 VMUG, so the VMware user group, or the Linux user group, or there's all these other user groups, but there wasn't really one for networking that wasn't tied to a vendor. So there was Cisco user groups and there was Palo Alto user groups, but there wasn't anything that was universal over networking as a whole.

[01:03:56:04 - 01:04:00:22]
Jason
 we thought to ourselves, "Wouldn't it be cool to have a place where we can get together and have it

[01:04:00:22 - 01:04:06:17]
Jason
 It had to be vendor neutral." So we talked about technologies like open standards and

[01:04:06:17 - 01:04:08:19]
Jason
 ways that people are solving problems,

[01:04:08:19 - 01:04:10:20]
Jason
 practices and all that sort of thing,

[01:04:10:20 - 01:04:11:08]
Jason
 but

[01:04:11:08 - 01:04:13:12]
Jason
 a vendor neutral way and have it be

[01:04:13:12 - 01:04:15:15]
Jason
 sales free. So

[01:04:15:15 - 01:04:20:08]
Jason
 started doing ONUGs back in 2017 actually when we first started,

[01:04:20:08 - 01:04:21:06]
Jason
 and then

[01:04:21:06 - 01:04:35:07]
Jason
 happened. So we had to put the kibosh on it. And then we had expanded from... We just started in Cleveland where we had like 15 people show up to that first Ohio Networking User Group meeting. And then towards the end, we were having upwards of 100 people

[01:04:35:07 - 01:04:37:17]
Jason
 time, the end of that.

[01:04:37:17 - 01:04:45:07]
Jason
 And we were running events in Cincinnati, in Toledo, in Columbus, in Cleveland, and kind of rotating to the state and getting

[01:04:45:07 - 01:04:47:11]
Jason
 upwards of 100 people showing up. And

[01:04:47:11 - 01:04:51:11]
Jason
 we thought to ourselves during the shutdown, there's something to this.

[01:04:51:11 - 01:05:15:00]
Jason
 It really resonated with people before. And what happens? What form does this take after? Because inevitably, COVID had to end sometimes. So we're like, "Okay, so what is this after?" And we took the time while we're all sitting around whatever, doing Zoom meetings and working from home constantly, never being able to leave the house. But we spent some time to really develop

[01:05:15:00 - 01:05:17:05]
Jason
 national program. So the USNUA was born.

[01:05:17:05 - 01:05:21:11]
Jason
 So we took the model that we created for the Ohio Networking User Group,

[01:05:21:11 - 01:05:21:23]
Jason
 and

[01:05:21:23 - 01:05:31:05]
Jason
 a template for it, so it was repeatable, so that we could share it with other people who had been asking, "Hey, that was really cool. People from Indiana, Michigan, adjacent states were coming in and going,

[01:05:31:05 - 01:05:33:09]
Jason
 "How do I do that where I'm at?" And so

[01:05:33:09 - 01:05:36:18]
Jason
 the USNUA, and then we started to branch out. And

[01:05:36:18 - 01:05:40:03]
Jason
 actually up to 33 groups now,

[01:05:40:03 - 01:05:45:07]
Jason
 yours being one of them in PA. You're in the Philadelphia PA, but we just launched one in

[01:05:45:07 - 01:05:45:14]
Jason
 Pittsburgh.

[01:05:45:14 - 01:05:48:16]
Jason
 And we're launching another six groups this year.

[01:05:48:16 - 01:05:58:10]
Jason
 So we're expanding, but really, the core of it is creating and fostering that community. So getting people together in person to come, again, talk about the challenges of the day,

[01:05:58:10 - 01:05:59:15]
Jason
 new technologies. So

[01:05:59:15 - 01:06:02:05]
Jason
 format it usually takes is at Presenter

[01:06:02:05 - 01:06:03:05]
Jason
 on

[01:06:03:05 - 01:06:04:18]
Jason
 open technology or

[01:06:04:18 - 01:06:07:06]
Jason
 They can be technical, they can be

[01:06:07:06 - 01:06:07:18]
Jason
 development.

[01:06:07:18 - 01:06:12:05]
Jason
 We also have other formats like what you guys did in Philadelphia where you had Lightning Talks,

[01:06:12:05 - 01:06:19:17]
Jason
 which I think was a pretty cool concept. And we actually have other groups that are like, "Hey, I like what they did in Philadelphia. I want to try that out."

[01:06:19:17 - 01:06:24:08]
Andy
 Well, that went really well and I

[01:06:24:08 - 01:06:31:00]
Andy
 don't remember how that all started, but yeah, like, so interestingly enough, we're together today, tomorrow the P&O Career Day

[01:06:31:00 - 01:06:38:22]
Andy
 episode will be released on the art of network engineering. And yeah, it was like, it was five, 10 minute talks about all these different things in career.

[01:06:38:22 - 01:06:43:22]
Andy
 know, fear of new technologies like automation, that was mine, big surprise. I mean, how to negotiate a salary, raise,

[01:06:45:14 - 01:06:45:23]
Andy
 how to like,

[01:06:45:23 - 01:06:46:18]
Andy
 a promotion.

[01:06:46:18 - 01:06:54:22]
Andy
 I really liked that format, honestly, picking a topic and having four or five SMEs or experts just give their perspective on that topic. Not that the old

[01:06:54:22 - 01:07:10:02]
Andy
 wasn't great. I also really like New York. I was at the New York Nog and that was, I mean, listen, we're on the top floor of the Spotify building. I'm looking over to Statue of Liberty. I'm a block from like, you know, the reflecting poles. I mean, I'm a block from the, you know, the reflecting poles. I mean, it was a really, really just cool place to be.

[01:07:10:02 - 01:07:16:11]
Andy
 And that's the only other Nog I've been to. I know that Scott Robon is here and he's been to like a ton of them. Some of these guys just go to all of them, right?

[01:07:16:11 - 01:07:18:04]
Jason
 It's true, yeah. It's like a...

[01:07:18:04 - 01:07:33:02]
Andy
 I wanted to circle back real quick on the vendor neutral thing. So when you were in Ohio and you guys found other user groups and were going, was there a weird salesy, vendor-y vibe to some of them? Not to cash shade, but because you wanted to create something different.

[01:07:33:02 - 01:07:36:08]
Andy
 was it about the thing? You might have said it and I, I missed it.

[01:07:36:08 - 01:07:50:19]
Jason
 We wanted it to really just be about the technology itself

[01:07:50:19 - 01:07:53:19]
Jason
 community and getting people together. And there was all these

[01:07:53:19 - 01:07:57:14]
Jason
 benefits that started to come out of it.

[01:07:57:14 - 01:07:59:18]
Jason
 Getting in the room with people and seeing

[01:07:59:18 - 01:08:01:12]
Jason
 that hadn't seen each other in

[01:08:01:12 - 01:08:02:00]
Andy
 know, 10 years.

[01:08:04:03 - 01:08:11:19]
Andy
 Danny Finan, perfect call out. Danny was the first guest on the art of network engineering in 2020. I didn't know him. It was AJ's friend.

[01:08:11:19 - 01:08:27:05]
Andy
 I met him in person for the first time last month at the P.A. Nog. He was like one of the speakers. Somebody, somebody dropped out and somebody said, what about Danny Finan? I'm like, that name's familiar. And then I saw the name. I'm like, wait. So like, I got to meet him in person after having him on the show five years ago. That was, and for me, I was like, I'm not a fan of that. I was,

[01:08:27:05 - 01:08:30:21]
Andy
 and part of what he talked about was community, which I just thought, which is what we're talking about here.

[01:08:30:21 - 01:08:34:06]
Andy
 and I remember when I came in, like, oh, the community, it almost sounds

[01:08:34:06 - 01:08:37:06]
Andy
 what, you know, is this something people just say to

[01:08:37:06 - 01:08:38:09]
Andy
 And apparently there's a lot of communities

[01:08:38:09 - 01:08:59:22]
Andy
 I think it's very important if you're out there alone, trudging this road by yourself because I've been there. Like, it's not a great way to do it. Like, why do anything alone? Right? Like life is a team sport. Why do anything alone? And I think unless you've done it by yourself, hoping and praying that it works out somehow

[01:08:59:22 - 01:09:00:08]
Andy
 because

[01:09:00:08 - 01:09:05:18]
Andy
 remember being a kid, my mom saying like, you are your friends. You are your peers. If you want to know about somebody, look at the people around them

[01:09:05:18 - 01:09:08:05]
Andy
 the people around me when I was studying networking

[01:09:08:05 - 01:09:14:15]
Andy
 not in the same headspace, not in the same vibe. Weren't, you know, they were very comfortable.

[01:09:14:15 - 01:09:16:00]
Andy
 I was a cable guy. They, you know, they,

[01:09:16:00 - 01:09:25:16]
Andy
 that's where they wanted to stay. And that's great. No shade, but it made me feel like there was something wrong with me because I wanted something more.

[01:09:25:16 - 01:09:30:02]
Andy
 there was like a split between us all of a sudden, the community I was in, they're like, well, were you like,

[01:09:30:02 - 01:09:42:06]
Andy
 you can make a group of people, peers really uncomfortable if you change. You know what I mean? Right. So to find people and this community did not do it alone. It's just so, and you mentioned something.

[01:09:42:06 - 01:09:45:17]
Andy
 know how to pivot into this, but so you mentioned something. I mean,

[01:09:47:04 - 01:09:58:05]
Andy
 you see, like you'll see on LinkedIn or something like, Hey, come to this lunch where we're going to talk about blah, blah, blah. And you know who it is and who's giving the talk. It's kind of camouflage, assault leadership. Come learn about cloud. You know,

[01:09:58:05 - 01:10:09:13]
Andy
 they're selling their, you know, they're tied to a vendor and they're trying to, this is a, somebody hit me up the other day, like, Hey, you know, we want to give out free lunches to people. Can you promote it? And like, there is no free lunch. It's like a cliche.

[01:10:09:13 - 01:10:11:00]
Jason
 Right, yeah, right,

[01:10:12:02 - 01:10:16:18]
Andy
 the product. You're the product. Like, so anyway, I love the model that you have

[01:10:16:18 - 01:10:20:23]
Andy
 and the balance you've struck. You need sponsors to help pay for this.

[01:10:20:23 - 01:10:34:15]
Jason
 come to the event, they make themselves aware. It's about brand awareness for them. They say, "Hey, I'm here. This is the problem that I solve. This is the thing I do."

[01:10:34:15 - 01:10:40:23]
Jason
 If that's interesting to you, you can opt into talking to those people. So it's a very respectful

[01:10:40:23 - 01:10:43:05]
Jason
 arrangement on both sides because

[01:10:43:05 - 01:10:45:23]
Jason
 we wanted to keep the

[01:10:45:23 - 01:10:51:06]
Jason
 sales approach out of the events, we still want to honor and respect

[01:10:51:06 - 01:10:52:11]
Jason
 sponsors because

[01:10:52:11 - 01:10:54:20]
Jason
 the ones who make these events go. And also,

[01:10:54:20 - 01:10:57:19]
Jason
 we want to be a good matchmaker. So

[01:10:57:19 - 01:11:04:09]
Jason
 you do legitimately need to solve a problem and one of the people, the sponsor in the room, can help you with that,

[01:11:04:09 - 01:11:06:15]
Jason
 I want to make that connection. You know what I mean?

[01:11:06:15 - 01:11:10:15]
Jason
 There's so many different vendors out there, you can't be aware of all of them and what they do.

[01:11:10:15 - 01:11:15:12]
Jason
 opportunity we give those vendors that people might not know about, they can come,

[01:11:15:12 - 01:11:24:23]
Jason
 sponsor an event, have someone on site that can answer questions and talk about their solution with people and be in the room with network engineers and maybe find out more about

[01:11:24:23 - 01:11:31:22]
Jason
 problem they have or a feature request that they might have that would make their product better too. So there's a lot of ways that we can

[01:11:31:22 - 01:11:36:01]
Jason
 those people together without cramming products and services down one's throat

[01:11:36:01 - 01:12:01:17]
Andy
 That's another good point about the power being together. So after the New York nug, someone who shall remain nameless came up to me at a big company and said, Oh, I didn't know you guys did such and such. Like, I'd like to talk to you. And like, great. I wasn't there to sell. I'm in marketing. I'm out in sales and USNUA wasn't like, you need to buy this thing because they are a sponsor. So I really like how you've navigated that the sponsors can describe what they're in the room

[01:12:01:17 - 01:12:02:00]
Jason
 Yep.

[01:12:02:00 - 01:12:08:04]
Andy
 and then be if they're if they sponsor at a certain level, you know, you can usually do we want to talk about spark

[01:12:08:04 - 01:12:10:03]
Andy
 I think it's pretty good for

[01:12:10:03 - 01:12:11:15]
Andy
 sponsors to hear about.

[01:12:11:15 - 01:12:15:20]
Jason
 Golden Platinum sponsors. We've added this

[01:12:15:20 - 01:12:29:05]
Jason
 for a sponsor to say, "Hey, I'm so-and-so. I'm from tonight's sponsor, say Nokia or Cisco or whomever it is, and here's what we do. And if that sounds interesting to you, come find me." And we'll talk more about it,

[01:12:29:05 - 01:12:29:23]
Jason
 maybe set up some time

[01:12:29:23 - 01:12:34:02]
Jason
 talk about it. I think that that's a great way to allow for

[01:12:34:02 - 01:12:37:02]
Jason
 of an opt-in sort of relationship versus

[01:12:37:02 - 01:12:39:18]
Jason
 or not you like it, you're gonna be hearing about this product.

[01:12:39:18 - 01:12:44:09]
Andy
 There's two guys I want to talk about Ben in

[01:12:44:09 - 01:12:44:10]
Jason
 All right.

[01:12:44:10 - 01:12:45:01]
Andy
 In New York. Yeah.

[01:12:45:01 - 01:12:50:16]
Andy
 and then Patrick and I'm going to go through them quick because I'm tired of my memory shot and I'll forget and then but

[01:12:50:16 - 01:12:55:15]
Andy
 showed up at the New York nug with a t-shirt and art of network engineering t-shirt that he bought

[01:12:55:15 - 01:13:09:08]
Andy
 brought it so I would sign it. Now when I got to the room, it was like an hour and a half, two hour drive up from where I am and like so I just went in grabbed a plate of food and sat down again. I'm not Mr. Woo whatever I sat down next to Ben.

[01:13:09:08 - 01:13:13:09]
Andy
 Ben came with the art of network engineering t-shirt for me to sign. There

[01:13:13:09 - 01:13:19:09]
Andy
 was a hundred and something people in the room. There was 20 tables. I sat next to Ben. Why? I don't know. It was meant to be right.

[01:13:19:09 - 01:13:24:21]
Andy
 So I meet Ben and he's a guy and help desk who's trying to get into networking and he's like, Oh, by the way, if you wouldn't mind, I'm like,

[01:13:24:21 - 01:13:28:01]
Andy
 freaked out because I've never signed an autograph in my

[01:13:28:01 - 01:13:34:11]
Andy
 life. I messed it up. I hadn't signed it three times. They looked terrible. Like I had bad handwriting. I've never signed a t-shirt with a Sharpie, right?

[01:13:34:11 - 01:14:08:01]
Andy
 a Sharpie, right? But it was so nice to see him and meet him. He's someone who needed a community found the USNUA. He heard us on the show, not like, right. Like we're all, I think we're all kind of interconnected, right? I used to be a pack of pushers like, no, like we're all helping again, the community, like there's different flavors of ice cream. There's different vibes. One place might cover something differently or in a different method or way than somebody else. So just Ben came in, heard it on the show, came there, met everybody. And now he's a network engineer working in an ISP. Now

[01:14:08:01 - 01:14:28:17]
Andy
 not saying he came there and got the job, but like you have to be on this path, I think, and doing things and meeting people in person. So when we were there, the big shot at this big company that came up to me, Ben came to say goodbye at the end. I was talking to this guy, introduced them. Hey, Ben's looking, he's hiring. So again, like you don't know if you're not in the room, you'll never know. Patrick, really quick,

[01:14:28:17 - 01:14:31:16]
Andy
 Patrick drove up from, I think, Maryland to the PA nug.

[01:14:31:16 - 01:14:37:13]
Andy
 nice guy, trying to get in, has a little bit of help desk experience, but he's raising a family. So he's got this other job that is an IT.

[01:14:38:16 - 01:14:42:10]
Andy
 And afterward, Craig, myself and another guy's name, I forget a PA nug.

[01:14:42:10 - 01:14:51:15]
Andy
 We probably sat down with him for about 35 minutes and worked on his resume, just because, because we've been there. He showed up. We want to help him. He asked. We had feedback.

[01:14:51:15 - 01:14:56:22]
Andy
 And at the end of the whole thing, he's like, oh, I came up from Maryland. We really don't have anything down there. And so is there a

[01:14:56:22 - 01:15:07:17]
Andy
 down there? Oh, I don't think so. They're talking about it. You can create the community you are looking for. Again, like that's what you did. That's what I've done. And I don't know if Patrick's going to do that and plug in with Maryland, but

[01:15:07:17 - 01:15:18:16]
Andy
 you're in a place that doesn't have one of the 36 chapters, whatever it is, how would someone, hey, I live in such and such. I don't have this. This sounds amazing. I don't want to drive four states away. How does somebody start a new chapter?

[01:15:18:16 - 01:15:19:11]
Jason
 Yeah, so

[01:15:19:11 - 01:15:22:01]
Jason
 our webpage, there's a Get Involved

[01:15:22:01 - 01:15:26:03]
Jason
 And on there, you can actually sign up to be in a new group.

[01:15:26:03 - 01:15:27:19]
Andy
 What's it cost? What's the catch?

[01:15:27:19 - 01:15:30:02]
Jason
 the cost is someone's time.

[01:15:30:02 - 01:15:31:13]
Andy
 Zero dollars?

[01:15:31:13 - 01:15:32:14]
Jason
 Zero dollars.

[01:15:32:14 - 01:15:32:16]
Andy
 No.

[01:15:32:16 - 01:15:34:03]
Jason
 Wow. Yes. Well,

[01:15:34:03 - 01:15:34:19]
Andy
 I mean,

[01:15:34:19 - 01:15:37:08]
Jason
 from the individual who's starting the group. It's not a

[01:15:37:08 - 01:15:40:00]
Andy
 is what I'm trying to get at. It's not like, give me 1500 bucks

[01:15:40:00 - 01:15:41:23]
Jason
 No, it's nothing like that. Yeah. Yeah. So

[01:15:41:23 - 01:15:42:12]
Andy
 cynical.

[01:15:42:12 - 01:15:44:17]
Jason
 key. I need to say that. What do they want?

[01:15:44:17 - 01:15:46:10]
Andy
 They just want you to build a community.

[01:15:46:10 - 01:15:54:23]
Jason
 Build a community. The things that we ask of them is find a space to put the event on, help find some sponsors and round up all your friends and everybody you know that you

[01:15:54:23 - 01:15:55:18]
Jason
 to get out

[01:15:55:18 - 01:15:59:18]
Jason
 this. And I want to build upon what you said as far as

[01:15:59:18 - 01:16:03:09]
Jason
 encounters that you'd seen that have resulted in career growth for people.

[01:16:03:09 - 01:16:04:14]
Jason
 I have witnessed

[01:16:04:14 - 01:16:06:17]
Jason
 our Massachusetts nug in Boston,

[01:16:06:17 - 01:16:16:22]
Jason
 was a young guy who was really sharp. He had actually built out his own ISP. He'd been doing BGP multi-homing with IPv6 addresses that he'd applied for.

[01:16:16:22 - 01:16:18:14]
Andy
 Gross. Did you say I PV sex?

[01:16:18:14 - 01:16:19:16]
Andy
 did. I was

[01:16:19:16 - 01:16:43:06]
Jason
 I think it was all just like tunnels. It was more about the experience and using the technology. But he met someone from another vendor in that room, and then he ended up getting an internship there. And then that resulted in career advancement for him, and he ended up with a full-time position. So

[01:16:43:06 - 01:16:44:14]
Jason
 the saying is,

[01:16:44:14 - 01:16:45:01]
Jason
 you gotta

[01:16:45:01 - 01:16:47:15]
Jason
 lot of times know someone to get in,

[01:16:47:15 - 01:16:51:07]
Jason
 feel it is true. And I think coming out to USNUA events

[01:16:51:07 - 01:16:59:21]
Jason
 a great place to make those connections with people. There's also something we do at every event. We start off by asking, is there anyone in the room

[01:16:59:21 - 01:17:03:10]
Jason
 And that's the every single event

[01:17:03:10 - 01:17:04:13]
Jason
 start that way.

[01:17:04:21 - 01:17:06:20]
Jason
 notes say that for the MC to

[01:17:06:20 - 01:17:08:04]
Andy
 We got to it about halfway through.

[01:17:08:04 - 01:17:29:02]
Jason
 As long as it happened somewhere in there, I did it in Toledo. So I went in and I did the MC duties. There was four people in the room that raised their hand and said, I'm hiring. Here's the position. If you're interested, talk to me. So like if you're new to career, if you're transitioning from one to another, like, you

[01:17:29:02 - 01:17:33:19]
Jason
 like Ben, who wanted to get out of help desk and maybe get into more of a network engineering role, great opportunity

[01:17:33:19 - 01:17:40:12]
Jason
 to come in and see if anybody raises their hand in that room, have a conversation with them. And you know what? If it doesn't work out this time,

[01:17:40:12 - 01:17:42:22]
Jason
 new friend, you made a new contact in the industry.

[01:17:42:22 - 01:17:44:11]
Jason
 It's all about who you know. So,

[01:17:44:11 - 01:17:45:14]
Jason
 know, the next time that,

[01:17:45:14 - 01:17:50:11]
Jason
 they have a position open, like I said, if it doesn't work out this time, there might be an opportunity down the road.

[01:17:50:11 - 01:17:52:02]
Jason
 So it's all about,

[01:17:52:02 - 01:17:53:21]
Jason
 getting people together to talk with one another,

[01:17:53:21 - 01:17:55:06]
Jason
 help solve problems,

[01:17:55:06 - 01:17:58:05]
Jason
 ultimately foster your career and develop it

[01:17:58:05 - 01:17:58:23]
Jason
 within the community.

[01:17:58:23 - 01:17:59:16]
Jason
 Meeting it

[01:17:59:16 - 01:18:01:01]
Jason
 knowing people is important.

[01:18:01:01 - 01:18:08:15]
Jason
 think that there is like a loneliness epidemic that's happening because people are behind screens so much. And I think that you need to get out in person.

[01:18:08:15 - 01:18:10:06]
Jason
 if there's a nug in your area,

[01:18:10:06 - 01:18:15:16]
Jason
 if you go to usnua.com, you'll see all the upcoming events, please, I encourage you, get out to an event

[01:18:15:16 - 01:18:20:02]
Jason
 hang out with your peers. If you don't have a nug in your area, you can reach out to us

[01:18:20:02 - 01:18:22:05]
Jason
 and we'll see if we can get you set up. But

[01:18:22:05 - 01:18:25:00]
Jason
 USNUA, I mean, great place to be together in person.

[01:18:25:00 - 01:18:29:21]
Andy
 That's why I wanted to have you back on and partner with you guys. And we're just so aligned

[01:18:29:21 - 01:18:48:15]
Andy
 What I wanted to ask you about, I don't know if this is a great place to end, because that was such a positive note, but you wrote an article, I guess, about the loneliness epidemic you've seen and social media and stuff. Do you want to just touch on that? I kind of meant to get it upfront and we didn't. So what was that article about? What were you talking about? And obviously the USNUA is kind of the solution to, I guess, the problem you point out.

[01:18:48:15 - 01:18:57:08]
Jason
 if so, if you go to the USNUA site usnua.com, there's a blog post I put up called putting the human back in network engineering.

[01:18:57:08 - 01:19:02:09]
Jason
 a lot of studies that have happened recently about the impact of people

[01:19:02:09 - 01:19:08:08]
Jason
 socially interacting on screens and not in person. And the

[01:19:08:08 - 01:19:10:07]
Jason
 and physiological effects

[01:19:10:07 - 01:19:11:18]
Jason
 that they'd found,

[01:19:11:18 - 01:19:13:15]
Jason
 an example I have in there

[01:19:13:15 - 01:19:19:11]
Jason
 can be equivalent from a health perspective to smoking 15 cigarettes a day.

[01:19:19:11 - 01:19:21:00]
Jason
 There's also

[01:19:21:00 - 01:19:25:12]
Jason
 a lot that's happening. We mentioned the career thing, but there's

[01:19:25:12 - 01:19:28:11]
Jason
 of people struggling out there when it comes to

[01:19:28:11 - 01:19:34:18]
Jason
 to find a new role for themselves, whether they've been out of work for a while or they're trying to transition and move up.

[01:19:34:18 - 01:19:37:22]
Jason
 And I feel like there is this

[01:19:37:22 - 01:19:40:22]
Jason
 that's happening on either side of

[01:19:40:22 - 01:19:56:03]
Jason
 career world where you've got applicants that are using AI to apply mass apply. And then so therefore it's like an arms race, right? And then you've got the other side, the folks hiring for positions, they have to have AI filtering. And I think what we're missing is

[01:19:56:03 - 01:20:06:14]
Jason
 human element where there was a time when you take a chance on somebody, when somebody would come in the room who didn't have exactly the qualifications you were looking for, but you're like,

[01:20:06:14 - 01:20:14:02]
Andy
 all have somebody take a chance on us, all of us. Right? I mean, I don't know how else to get in. How do you get the job without experience? Somebody has to take a chance

[01:20:14:02 - 01:20:26:00]
Jason
 And today you can't... Don't get that chance because you have these systems that filter you out because you don't have like... They're looking for somebody who knows BGP and that's not in your resume or what have you.

[01:20:26:00 - 01:20:27:09]
Jason
 But the important thing is like,

[01:20:27:09 - 01:20:29:19]
Jason
 we need to get back, somehow get back to

[01:20:29:19 - 01:20:34:23]
Jason
 people a shot who maybe they have, they have a good work ethic, they're willing to learn, they're curious,

[01:20:34:23 - 01:20:36:21]
Jason
 and they're willing to go,

[01:20:36:21 - 01:20:42:19]
Jason
 learn new things, but the attitudes there, if you ask anybody who has any experience with hiring,

[01:20:42:19 - 01:20:47:17]
Jason
 they hire more for the person. Like for your capabilities, your capability to learn,

[01:20:47:17 - 01:20:53:21]
Jason
 your willingness to learn, your attitude, those things are way more important than skills. And I would encourage everybody,

[01:20:53:21 - 01:20:56:09]
Jason
 those are the things to focus on and

[01:20:56:09 - 01:21:05:00]
Jason
 really dive into. So we gotta find a way to get back to that. We gotta find a way to get back to getting people together in person to meet and know one another

[01:21:05:00 - 01:21:08:14]
Jason
 have that connection be more human when it comes to

[01:21:08:14 - 01:21:09:21]
Jason
 hiring process, in my opinion.

[01:21:09:21 - 01:21:14:20]
Andy
 It just popped in my head, which is why I love these conversations. I used to sell used cars as a younger man. And

[01:21:14:20 - 01:21:15:17]
Andy
 at the time, who

[01:21:15:17 - 01:21:22:09]
Andy
 brilliant, that taught me how to do it, he said, "No one is ever gonna buy a high ticket item from someone they don't like. Your whole job is to get someone to like you."

[01:21:22:09 - 01:21:23:13]
Andy
 And the parallel, I guess,

[01:21:23:13 - 01:21:27:18]
Andy
 that my brain made as you were talking is, it's very difficult to

[01:21:27:18 - 01:21:31:23]
Andy
 those qualities in a person that you want to hire on a piece of paper

[01:21:31:23 - 01:21:33:14]
Andy
 or on your LinkedIn or your, like,

[01:21:33:14 - 01:21:43:10]
Andy
 but when you meet someone in person, there's a nonverbal element. Like, there's a lot of stuff we can't see, right? Like we see like 5% of like the light spectrum, right? Like there's pheromones, like

[01:21:43:10 - 01:21:56:10]
Andy
 are talking to trees, like there's just a lot going on. And there's the power of non, I think 75% of communication is nonverbal. That's not gonna happen on a screen. That's not gonna happen in a resume. It's not gonna happen in a LinkedIn application. So

[01:21:56:10 - 01:22:06:09]
Andy
 love what you're saying. I love what you're doing with USNUA. And I really do think if you're trying to get into networking or grow your career,

[01:22:06:09 - 01:22:10:15]
Andy
 you have to get in places physically with people because they do hire for fit.

[01:22:10:15 - 01:22:34:23]
Andy
 a computer. And technology is divisive and it's, they have the smartest computers ever created. AI pointed at our brains to keep us in there. I mean, that's why we're all at home scrolling. It's why I'm up at 1.30 in the morning and I was supposed to go to bed at 10, still on Instagram looking at nonsense. Like, "Oh, look at this funny Chihuahua." Like, "Dude, go to bed." Like, you know, the AI is smarter than me. And if we're all locked in these little boxes here and not getting together, you're right.

[01:22:34:23 - 01:22:36:02]
Andy
 A newcomer is never gonna get that

[01:22:36:02 - 01:22:40:13]
Andy
 They're never gonna get that opportunity. Unless you're getting in rooms with people physically.

[01:22:40:13 - 01:22:41:02]
Andy
 Jason,

[01:22:41:02 - 01:22:42:03]
Andy
 this has been great.

[01:22:42:15 - 01:22:57:14]
Andy
 Thank you for what the audience doesn't know is, I was running late. I got like, this guy's been so patient and then I run in and set everything up. So I really appreciate everything you do with the USNUA, your patience with me as you waited for me to get here an hour after I said I would be here.

[01:22:57:14 - 01:23:01:12]
Andy
 For folks who wanna find you and for folks who wanna get involved with USNUA, where can

[01:23:01:12 - 01:23:05:13]
Jason
 there's also the Get Involved page. So at the top,

[01:23:05:13 - 01:23:06:10]
Jason
 If you go to Groups,

[01:23:06:10 - 01:23:09:08]
Jason
 there's a Get Involved link underneath that on our page at the top.

[01:23:09:08 - 01:23:15:17]
Jason
 There's a Slack in there. If you're interested in having conversations and talking with the community,

[01:23:15:17 - 01:23:16:22]
Jason
 there's also

[01:23:16:22 - 01:23:23:10]
Jason
 for Papers. So if you have a cool idea and you wanna present it at a networking user group event, or if you wanna be a panelist.

[01:23:23:10 - 01:23:27:08]
Jason
 A lot of our events, we talked about it before, the format's usually like a presenter and panel,

[01:23:27:08 - 01:23:33:06]
Jason
 opportunities if you've got a great idea for a different type of format. But if you wanna participate,

[01:23:33:06 - 01:23:34:18]
Jason
 could always use help

[01:23:34:18 - 01:23:39:10]
Jason
 it comes to organizing and finding new spaces and finding new sponsors and all that stuff,

[01:23:39:10 - 01:23:43:06]
Jason
 we could really use you if you would have the time to get involved.

[01:23:43:06 - 01:23:45:10]
Jason
 But if nothing else, come to an event.

[01:23:45:10 - 01:23:50:05]
Jason
 encourage everyone out there, just come out once, at least once,

[01:23:50:05 - 01:23:51:10]
Jason
 meet your peers, hang out,

[01:23:51:10 - 01:23:53:16]
Jason
 have food.

[01:23:53:16 - 01:24:05:11]
Andy
 free drink. And you don't have to be an extrovert. I feel like I should say this. A lot of engineer folks are introverts. I think I'm a weirdo because I like people.

[01:24:05:11 - 01:24:06:07]
 (Laughs)

[01:24:06:07 - 01:24:33:06]
Andy
 Right? But like, it seems like maybe that's part of what's holding people back. You know what I mean? It's a Thursday, they're tired, they don't wanna drive the 30 minutes and like being around new people kind of makes them uncomfortable. If your career is important to you, you need to be in rooms with people having these conversations. So if you can put your career ahead of your discomfort for, I don't know, 30 minutes, just come, hang out, get a drink, talk to somebody and see if it's worth staying. If it's not, hey, you tried it and you're out. But

[01:24:33:06 - 01:24:36:08]
Andy
 love what you're doing. We wanna support USNUA in

[01:24:36:08 - 01:24:37:04]
Andy
 in any way we can

[01:24:37:04 - 01:24:39:12]
Andy
 the Art of Network Engineering. I know we've

[01:24:39:12 - 01:25:00:00]
Andy
 and produced a couple of local PA NUG things. I'm hoping, listen, with an unlimited budget and no day jobs for either of us, I would just go all over the country and do what we're doing here at all these because these conversations I think are very important to share because it's a shame if you're in Nebraska that someone in Philadelphia can't benefit from that information and vice versa. And you know, with 36 chapters,

[01:25:00:00 - 01:25:20:15]
Andy
 we're in networking, right? How do we connect all those? And I know that you're working toward that, but the knowledge that comes out of each of these local chapters is just unbelievable. I know you've been gathering a lot of it on the site. I've seen the call for papers and the blogs and the videos. And so usnua.com I think is a really good place to go in the interim to see what's happening, see what's going on. Do you have a YouTube channel?

[01:25:20:15 - 01:25:34:18]
Jason
 We do. We do have a YouTube channel. There's a few videos on there. There is a members portion of the site too, where you can go see old presentations. So I think yours is up there and there's a bunch of stuff that's on there. So when you sign up to become a member, we're going to start notifying you about

[01:25:34:18 - 01:25:38:15]
Jason
 events in your area, and you'll get access to that catalog of things.

[01:25:38:15 - 01:25:40:21]
Jason
 And one important thing I wanna emphasize

[01:25:40:21 - 01:25:48:10]
Jason
 and Andy talked a little bit about this earlier, like when he had his conversation with Ben, there's a lot of older guys like us that are in the room. How dare you?

[01:25:48:10 - 01:25:49:10]
 (Laughs)

[01:25:49:10 - 01:25:59:07]
Jason
 Come on, come on man, everybody. Like I got some grays, you got a little grays too. It's all right, it's okay. You know, with all of our wisdom and gray hairs,

[01:25:59:07 - 01:26:04:00]
Jason
 we love seeing young people come who are interested in invigorated by this industry. And

[01:26:04:00 - 01:26:05:22]
Jason
 at some point we gotta hand the baton to

[01:26:05:22 - 01:26:10:10]
Jason
 generation of network engineers. We need them real bad, yeah. Big time.

[01:26:11:11 - 01:26:13:01]
Jason
 Big time. So don't think

[01:26:13:01 - 01:26:29:05]
Jason
 you're a junior engineer, people are judging you or thinking less of you because you don't have all the, you know, all the LSA types and, you know, BGP attributes and stuff. Like that is not, that's not the case. We want to see everyone come together. We wanna meet new people and

[01:26:29:05 - 01:26:30:08]
Jason
 people who

[01:26:30:08 - 01:26:35:09]
Jason
 excited about the industry, maybe even like a little, live a little vicariously through new eyes.

[01:26:35:09 - 01:26:37:05]
Jason
 just wanna, you know, make that point.

[01:26:37:05 - 01:26:43:14]
Jason
 threatened. It's not scary. It's a very welcoming and a very cool vibe. And most of our other NOG events.

[01:26:43:14 - 01:26:46:15]
Andy
 Perfect bow, Jason, thank you so much for being on again.

[01:26:46:15 - 01:26:51:12]
Andy
 For all things, Art of Network Engineering, you can check out our Linktree at linktree forward slash artofneteng.

[01:26:51:12 - 01:26:58:23]
Andy
 As always, I encourage you to check out the Discord server called It's All About the Journey. 3,000-ish people in there studying,

[01:26:58:23 - 01:27:12:14]
Andy
 checking in, helping each other out. I have folks who reach out to me just randomly saying, hey, how you doing? And there have been days that that has really been a wonderful, wonderful thing to receive. So if you're gonna be behind a computer,

[01:27:12:14 - 01:27:13:14]
 (Laughs)

[01:27:13:14 - 01:27:15:09]
Andy
 there are virtual communities you can join.

[01:27:15:09 - 01:27:21:12]
Andy
 So just don't trudge this road alone. Find your community in person, digitally, all the things, get together with people.

[01:27:21:12 - 01:27:24:02]
Andy
 Thanks so much for watching and listening, and we'll catch you next

[01:27:24:01 - 01:27:25:17]
Andy
 time on the Art of Network Engineering podcast.

[01:27:25:17 - 01:27:27:16]
 (Music)

[01:27:27:16 - 01:27:52:20]
andy
 Hey folks, if you like what you heard today, please subscribe to our podcast and your favorite pod catcher. You can find us on socials at artofneteng. You can visit linktree.com forward slash artofneteng.com for links to all of our content, including the A1 merch store and our virtual community on Discord called It's All About the Journey. You can see our pretty faces on our YouTube channel named the Art of Network Engineering. That's youtube.com forward slash artofneteng.

[01:27:52:20 - 01:27:53:20]
Speaker 2
 Thanks for listening.